🚀 go-pugleaf

I think that's the point, raptors can't hover without wind. It's more of
a gliding, to me, than a hovering. I too have seen Red Tail and
Swainson's Hawks, near motionless, waiting for their prey to poke it's
head out of the brush in the Chihuahuan desert of west Texas, held aloft
by columns of warm air rising, but take away that wind...

Interesting to note Webster's first defintion of hovering is "to hang
fluttering in the air or on the wing" - that's NOT a raptor!

Chris

PS: Is that the show where they have the camera IN the water looking up
at the kingfisher?

Tina Harrup wrote:

> What could the Beeb mean?   Maybe it meant that it was the largest bird able
> to hover over water in still air.  But I thought it was rather misleading
> and these documentaries are usually very well researched.  Or have I missed
> something.  Or just being plain pedantic.
>
> Tina

--
________________________________________________________________

C R Nugent             mailto:crnugent@tamu.edu
Research Assistant
Oceanography - TAMU    http://www-ocean.tamu.edu/~nugent
Ph:(409)845-5767
Fax:(409)845-6331      Lex clavitoris designati rescindenda est!
________________________________________________________________
"Nobody in football should be called a genius. A genius is a guy like
Norman Einstein." Football commentator and former Washington Redskin Joe
Theismann

On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:22:35 -0500, C R Nugent <crnugent@tamu.edu>
wrote:

>I think that's the point, raptors can't hover without wind. It's more of
>a gliding, to me, than a hovering. I too have seen Red Tail and
>Swainson's Hawks, near motionless, waiting for their prey to poke it's
>head out of the brush in the Chihuahuan desert of west Texas, held aloft
>by columns of warm air rising, but take away that wind...

Both White-tailed Kites and American Kestrels hover quite well in air
so still that a person on the ground nearby can't detect any breeze.
It's hard to determine how much air movement there is where they are,
50 or 100 ft above the ground, but there surely isn't much.

The Attenborough programs have wonderful photography, but others have
pointed out a number of errors in them. (mis-identified hummingbirds,
for example, in a Lanny Chambers post to this NG) I'm not sure about
the size of the African Pied Kingfisher relative to the W.T. Kite.
However, they may be no better at hovering, a term suited to the
popular focus of the TV series.


George Oetzel, Menlo Park, CA
Don't use reply-to address.
Address emails to: goetzel{at}sri.com

Northern Harriers (Marsh Hawk) seem to do quite a respectable
job of hovering IMHO. Being only a few feet off the ground at
times, they don't have a lot of altitude to help buffer any
miscalculations either.

Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids  MI
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========================
On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:22:35 -0500, C R Nugent
<crnugent@tamu.edu> wrote:

>I think that's the point, raptors can't hover without wind. It's more of
>a gliding, to me, than a hovering. I too have seen Red Tail and
>Swainson's Hawks, near motionless, waiting for their prey to poke it's
>head out of the brush in the Chihuahuan desert of west Texas, held aloft
>by columns of warm air rising, but take away that wind...
>
>Interesting to note Webster's first defintion of hovering is "to hang
>fluttering in the air or on the wing" - that's NOT a raptor!
>
>Chris
>
>PS: Is that the show where they have the camera IN the water looking up
>at the kingfisher?
>
>Tina Harrup wrote:
>
>> What could the Beeb mean?   Maybe it meant that it was the largest bird able
>> to hover over water in still air.  But I thought it was rather misleading
>> and these documentaries are usually very well researched.  Or have I missed
>> something.  Or just being plain pedantic.
>> 
>> Tina
>
>-- 
>________________________________________________________________
>                                                             
>C R Nugent             mailto:crnugent@tamu.edu           
>Research Assistant                                          
>Oceanography - TAMU    http://www-ocean.tamu.edu/~nugent        
>Ph:(409)845-5767                                            
>Fax:(409)845-6331      Lex clavitoris designati rescindenda est!         
>________________________________________________________________
>"Nobody in football should be called a genius. A genius is a guy like
>Norman Einstein." Football commentator and former Washington Redskin Joe
>Theismann

Tina Harrup wrote:

> Was watching David Attenborough's "Life of Birds" on video the other day - one
> of the BBC's mega natural history productions.  One sequence showed an African
> Pied Kingfisher hovering above water and Sir David stated that it was the
> largest bird in the world to be able to do this.
>
> Indeed, it is a fairly big bird and I've seen a fair few doing their hovering
> trick in my time.  And wonderful they are to watch too.  But I've also seen a
> couple of large raptors doing the same over the Hungarian plains:
> Rough-legged Buzzard and Short-toed Eagle to be precise.  Both of these are
> considerably bigger than a Pied Kingfisher.

> What could the Beeb mean?   Maybe it meant that it was the largest bird able
> to hover over water in still air.  But I thought it was rather misleading and
> these documentaries are usually very well researched.  Or have I missed
> something.  Or just being plain pedantic.
>
> Tina

Hmmm.  Something is amiss here.  The Pied Kingfisher is merely a medium sized
kingfisher (25-29 cm in length and weighing a little over 69 grams).  The Giant
Kingfisher (also living in Africa) also hovers when fishing (though less so than
the Pied) and is twice as big (43-46 cm in length, more than 338 grams in
weight).  I can think of many birds that can hover (without the apparent aid of
wind) and all the kestrels are among them.  Others are Red-shouldered Hawk,
Black-tailed Kite, Northern Harrier.  I say "apparent" because in my review of
this topic in Ehrlich's "The Birder's Handbook" he implies that birds of prey,
including kestrels, require wind to hover.  I'm not sure I agree with that.  Any
other opinions out there?

--
John J. Collins
Whitestone, NY
"In the end we will conserve only what we love; we will love only what we
understand; we will understand only what we are taught."  (Senegalese proverb.)

Interesting question. I often watch Harriers & Kestrels. Harriers really are
sailplanes that do not really hover, they can drop their forward speed to
almost nothing for short periods (as can Kites) but I would'nt call it a
true hover. Kestrels really do hover in exactly the same way as Kingfishers,
by beating their wings which are  held at the perfect angle of attack to
negate forward motion. As mentioned Redtails sometimes hang in mid air
without forward motion but that requires a strong wind & is really a
controlled dive at a speed that exactly matches opposing wind velocity.
Roughlegs can also hover in the same manner as kestrels, no wind required,
but it looks like hard work for them. John J. Collins <jjcbird@banet.net>
wrote in message news:3803DEF7.F4368B7C@banet.net...
> Tina Harrup wrote:
>
> > Was watching David Attenborough's "Life of Birds" on video the other
day - one
> > of the BBC's mega natural history productions.  One sequence showed an
African
> > Pied Kingfisher hovering above water and Sir David stated that it was
the
> > largest bird in the world to be able to do this.
> >
> > Indeed, it is a fairly big bird and I've seen a fair few doing their
hovering
> > trick in my time.  And wonderful they are to watch too.  But I've also
seen a
> > couple of large raptors doing the same over the Hungarian plains:
> > Rough-legged Buzzard and Short-toed Eagle to be precise.  Both of these
are
> > considerably bigger than a Pied Kingfisher.
>
> > What could the Beeb mean?   Maybe it meant that it was the largest bird
able
> > to hover over water in still air.  But I thought it was rather
misleading and
> > these documentaries are usually very well researched.  Or have I missed
> > something.  Or just being plain pedantic.
> >
> > Tina
>
> Hmmm.  Something is amiss here.  The Pied Kingfisher is merely a medium
sized
> kingfisher (25-29 cm in length and weighing a little over 69 grams).  The
Giant
> Kingfisher (also living in Africa) also hovers when fishing (though less
so than
> the Pied) and is twice as big (43-46 cm in length, more than 338 grams in
> weight).  I can think of many birds that can hover (without the apparent
aid of
> wind) and all the kestrels are among them.  Others are Red-shouldered
Hawk,
> Black-tailed Kite, Northern Harrier.  I say "apparent" because in my
review of
> this topic in Ehrlich's "The Birder's Handbook" he implies that birds of
prey,
> including kestrels, require wind to hover.  I'm not sure I agree with
that.  Any
> other opinions out there?
>
> --
> John J. Collins
> Whitestone, NY
> "In the end we will conserve only what we love; we will love only what we
> understand; we will understand only what we are taught."  (Senegalese
proverb.)
>
>