🚀 go-pugleaf

Bullets is Bullets -- Amen. Three quick tricks? And any honor in pards
hand is promoted.
I would always open. Even fourth seat.
Regarding Aces, Grant Baze has said that if you give him 3 Aces, you
take 4 Kings, and the rest of the cards are dealt at random, you will
go broke in a hurry.

PS did you see the story in the latest Bridge World where the bidding
goes
P-P-P-P
2nd seat (who holds AKQJTxxxxx and made an eccentric pass) asks 4th
seat:
"What did you have?" "Nothing but 3 Aces and spaces" comes the reply.
"And you?"
"Just a ten count."

"Stig Holmquist" <stigfjorden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bp92n114gb4ta19370pjgistii7mebfuee@4ax.com...
> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
>
> Stig Holmquist

Three aces is not just any old 12 HCP.  If this hand passes, partner will
never believe it has three aces.  Also, Bergen Rule of 20 is used for
distributional hands that do not have 13 or a good 12 HCP, not to be applied
here, with or without adjustments.

IMO, it would take a person with no pulse to pass this hand:)

Stig Holmquist wrote:
> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
>
> Stig Holmquist

I open 1NT (12-14) in any seat. I could see passing it if playing the
Strong NT, although I probably would not do so. Not opening the hand in
fourth chair does seem tempting.

Will in New Haven

--

All change for round six; slow pairs please go home.

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:39:16 -0500, Stig Holmquist
<stigfjorden@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
>Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
>and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
>the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
>qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
>would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
>
>Stig Holmquist

Bullets is bullets.  Any time, any place.  And I'm among the soundest
openers you know.

Stig Holmquist wrote:
> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?

The merit would be to win a partscore battle.

"Stig Holmquist" <stigfjorden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bp92n114gb4ta19370pjgistii7mebfuee@4ax.com...
> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
>
> Stig Holmquist

Kaplan always supported opening 3 aces and out.  Roth no with a balanced
hand.  I support Roth's position when I can not open 1NT.  If I can open
1NT, this is the best action.  Of course, Kaplan was playing 12-14 1NT, and
Roth 16-18 1NT, so it is no surprise that they were on different plans.
Playing a strong 1NT, I believe that the overall expectation is minus
opening this example hand.

Sandy Barnes

Stig Holmquist wrote:
> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
>
> Stig Holmquist


I'd pass in 4th seat unless I was playing duplicate and didn't want to
just sit there.

For Axx-xxx-Axx-Axxx  I dunno.


How many use 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25?  That seems a bit extreme to me.
It's the sort of thing you would come up with using computers playing
double dummy.


> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape

Are you sure?  I don't remember that one, but might have forgotten.
Charles counted
xx-Axx-Axx-Axxxx as 14.  Maybe 15 for the quick tricks. (My copy of
Goren is 11,000 miles-20,000km away).

I don't think Goren deducted the 1pt for NT opening.

Another refinement is to add 1pt for holding 3 or more A or 10 (or
combinations.)

Stig Holmquist wrote:
> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
>


I would open this in first, second or third seat but would certainly
consider passing it in fourth seat depending on the state of match and
the jitteriness of the opponents.

Bob

Stig Holmquist wrote on "Do you open : xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx"
>Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
>Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
>and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
>the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
>qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
>would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
>
>Stig Holmquist

This is a flat hand and looks destined for NT. So vulnerability matters.
Vul it's balanced crap and I'd pass (also in 4th).

NV there's nothing wrong with 1NT at pairs. If you go off, they can make
more in their contract. And it's even easier playing a mini (as I do).

Should they double, well you hope partner has some shape (as you don't)!
Should they overcall, well at least partner is enabled, and should he
choose to defend you have all the tricks he might expect.

So 1NT 1st-3rd nv (or favorable at teams) from me.
--
How is it that 4% of World humans can produce 25% of the worlds CO2?
Chris Ryall Wirral UK <cjr2005@my.domain>

"Stig Holmquist" <stigfjorden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bp92n114gb4ta19370pjgistii7mebfuee@4ax.com...
> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
>
> Stig Holmquist

"Stig Holmquist" <stigfjorden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bp92n114gb4ta19370pjgistii7mebfuee@4ax.com...
> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
>
> Stig Holmquist

Stig Holmquist wrote:
> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
>
> Stig Holmquist

The risk in passing is that partner will never play you for three
defensive tricks, and this may result in missed games, and phantom
sacrifices.

This does not, of course, apply in 4th seat.

Dave Flower

Stig Holmquist schrieb:

> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
>
> Stig Holmquist

Never passed with 3 aces, never will.

Gerben

[Stig Holmquist]
> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
[nige1]
Yes. This hand has half a quick trick to spare for us
Culbertson devotees.

Stig Holmquist wrote:
> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
>
> Stig Holmquist

 I vote with the openers

Stig Holmquist wrote:
> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
>
> Stig Holmquist

Open 1NT (12-14) every time. Wins more often than it loses. Even if
playing Srong NT, would open 1C.

John

Stig Holmquist <stigfjorden@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:bp92n114gb4ta19370pjgistii7mebfuee@4ax.com:

> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
>
> Stig Holmquist

No question in my mind. Its an opening. I open 1N(12-14) but would open 1C
if playing strong NT.

Aces are undervalued.

Otis

Stig Holmquist wrote:
> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
>
> Stig Holmquist


I would pass vulnerable in first or second seat especially when
vulnerable at pairs.
The problem with this hand is while it has good defensive value, it's
offensive power is poor.
You have your three tricks and not much else.
If you give partner 8 hcp or so with no particular distribution you
could easily be a favorite to not make 1NT. For example, give partner S
Qxx  H Qxxx  D Qxx  C Qxx and you are probably going to go down at
least a couple of tricks on an average day.
Opposite many balanced 13 or 14 counts partner might bull his way to an
inferior 3NT.
With a bigger hand with say 18-19 hcp and a balanced hand partner just
might bull his way to an inferior slam.
Also, if the auction turns competitive, partner might stretch to a game
where you would rather not be there. Finally, if the opponents buy the
contract, declarer should have an easy time guessing the hand then if
you pass. So I think, opening in first or second seat opens the
partnership with various unfavorable scenarios that are easily avoided
by passing.

The worth of this hand increases to partner if he has a distributional
hand. But you don't have to bid anything to encourage him to bid so
opening is not necessary now.

In third or fourth seat, I would open 1C because I don't have to keep
the bidding open and I can pass any response so our side is less likely
to get too high.

Eric Leong

Stig Holmquist wrote:

> Otis and others who would open 1 NT (weak) seem to disregard an old
> rule that a NT opener should have six honor cards

Was this old rule intended to apply to weak notrumps?  Or to the
old-fashioned notrump range of 16-18?   If the latter, it doesn't make
sense to take a rule like this intended to apply to the higher range
and apply it without modification to a lower one.

                         -- Adam

Well, if you consider Qxx-Qxxx-Qxx-Qxx worth 8 points then you might
consider xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx worth an uninspiring 12 count.  However, the
point is that with the uninspiring distribution taken into account your
example hand is better valued at 6 while the hand under discussion is
still worth around 13 points .
Admittedly partner might respond 1NT, but I consider your example hand
minimum for keeping the bidding open.
Do you open vulnerable only point with 14 hcp because partner might bid
1NT with 6 hcp?
I would also advise to value any hand with 18-19 hcp down when missing
3 aces , in particular if 3 aces in partner hand would still be
insufficient to make slam a good bet.

Rainer Herrmann

"Stig Holmquist" <stigfjorden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4rl4n1pk4ln8ca3p8iv6tm7kil07krb5h4@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 06:35:15 -0600, Otis Bricker
> <obricker@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
>>Stig Holmquist <stigfjorden@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>news:bp92n114gb4ta19370pjgistii7mebfuee@4ax.com:
>>
>>> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
>>> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
>>> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
>>> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
>>> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
>>> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
>>>
>>> Stig Holmquist
>>
>>No question in my mind. Its an opening. I open 1N(12-14) but would open 1C
>>if playing strong NT.
>>
>>Aces are undervalued.
>>
>>Otis
>
> Otis and others who would open 1 NT (weak) seem to disregard an old
> rule that a NT opener should have six honor cards and if not one needs
> to deduct 1/2 pt for each missing honor card.

Can you tell whose rule this is (who recommends it).


>
> The hand as featured can take only 3 tricks and if partner has 3 K's
> they can take only 6 tricks  even though they have 21 HCP together.
>
> Stig Holmquist

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 06:35:15 -0600, Otis Bricker
<obricker@my-dejanews.com> wrote:

>Stig Holmquist <stigfjorden@hotmail.com> wrote in
>news:bp92n114gb4ta19370pjgistii7mebfuee@4ax.com:
>
>> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
>> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
>> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
>> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
>> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
>> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
>>
>> Stig Holmquist
>
>No question in my mind. Its an opening. I open 1N(12-14) but would open 1C
>if playing strong NT.
>
>Aces are undervalued.
>
>Otis

Otis and others who would open 1 NT (weak) seem to disregard an old
rule that a NT opener should have six honor cards and if not one needs
to deduct 1/2 pt for each missing honor card.

The hand as featured can take only 3 tricks and if partner has 3 K's
they can take only 6 tricks  even though they have 21 HCP together.

Stig Holmquist

"Stig Holmquist" <stigfjorden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bp92n114gb4ta19370pjgistii7mebfuee@4ax.com...
> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
>
> Stig Holmquist

Aces are worth much more than the Work count suggests - about 4.9. I'd say
that it's automatic to open all hands with two aces and a king, except
perhaps hands with short spades in fourth position. Although the value might
be dubious opposite a random collection of queens and jacks, it could be a
very powerful hand opposite lots of shapely collections - say
QJTxx,xx,KQxxx,x.

Tiggrr

the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand

Actually, this is a minor variation on a count introduced c. 1935, the
Four Aces Count. Although working with the numbers (esp. fractions) is
a little harder than dealing with the Milton Work/Goren count, it is a
little more accurate. To get the 1935 values, just multiply the first
four by 2/3 (ii. e., to derive 3, 2, 1, .5) and ignore the value of the
tenspot.

Others, to eliminate fractions, double the 1935 numbers, to derive 6,
4, 2, 1.

Alvin P. Bluthman
apbluthman@aoil.com

the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand

Actually, this is a minor variation on a count introduced c. 1935, the
Four Aces Count. Although working with the numbers (esp. fractions) is
a little harder than dealing with the Milton Work/Goren count, it is a
little more accurate. To get the 1935 values, just multiply the first
four by 2/3 (ii. e., to derive 3, 2, 1, .5) and ignore the value of the
tenspot.

Others, to eliminate fractions, double the 1935 numbers, to derive 6,
4, 2, 1.

Alvin P. Bluthman
apbluthman@aol.com

Adam Beneschan wrote:
> Stig Holmquist wrote:
>
>
>>Otis and others who would open 1 NT (weak) seem to disregard an old
>>rule that a NT opener should have six honor cards
>
>
> Was this old rule intended to apply to weak notrumps?  Or to the
> old-fashioned notrump range of 16-18?   If the latter, it doesn't make
> sense to take a rule like this intended to apply to the higher range
> and apply it without modification to a lower one.

It was a Culbertson guideline for strong notrumps when at the bottom of
the honortrick range.  It was not a "rule" even for Culbertson's strong
notrumps: it merely was a way of taking minimum strong notrumps out of
the notrump range.  And it certainly never applied to weak notrumps.
Culbertson himself played weak notrumps for a while; he never waited
around for 6 honor cards.

Stig Holmquist schrieb:

> On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 06:35:15 -0600, Otis Bricker
> <obricker@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
> >Stig Holmquist <stigfjorden@hotmail.com> wrote in
> >news:bp92n114gb4ta19370pjgistii7mebfuee@4ax.com:
> >
> >> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
> >> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
> >> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
> >> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
> >> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
> >> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
> >>
> >> Stig Holmquist
> >
> >No question in my mind. Its an opening. I open 1N(12-14) but would open 1C
> >if playing strong NT.
> >
> >Aces are undervalued.
> >
> >Otis
>
> Otis and others who would open 1 NT (weak) seem to disregard an old
> rule that a NT opener should have six honor cards and if not one needs
> to deduct 1/2 pt for each missing honor card.
>
> The hand as featured can take only 3 tricks and if partner has 3 K's
> they can take only 6 tricks  even though they have 21 HCP together.
>
> Stig Holmquist

There are too many problems with not opening. First that partner will
never ever imagine you have three aces. Second that partner, who
doesn't have many aces by definition, will devalue his hand for not
having them. Not good...

Gerben

Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl@earthlink.net> wrote in news:nMvcf.7212$AS6.5796
@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:

> Adam Beneschan wrote:
>> Stig Holmquist wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Otis and others who would open 1 NT (weak) seem to disregard an old
>>>rule that a NT opener should have six honor cards
>>
>>
>> Was this old rule intended to apply to weak notrumps?  Or to the
>> old-fashioned notrump range of 16-18?   If the latter, it doesn't make
>> sense to take a rule like this intended to apply to the higher range
>> and apply it without modification to a lower one.
>
> It was a Culbertson guideline for strong notrumps when at the bottom of
> the honortrick range.  It was not a "rule" even for Culbertson's strong
> notrumps: it merely was a way of taking minimum strong notrumps out of
> the notrump range.  And it certainly never applied to weak notrumps.
> Culbertson himself played weak notrumps for a while; he never waited
> around for 6 honor cards.

Thanks for the history lesson. I thought I had seen most of the hand
evaluation techniques from the early days but that one I missed. It does
make some sense in that the more honors you hold, the more likely that the
lead up to you will help.

As a side point, didn't Culberson argue against opeing NT if you had ant
excuse? This looks like he was just adding another one to use.

Otis

Who in no way meant to imply anything about Martin's advancing age. Or
Stig's for that matter.

Otis Bricker wrote:

><SNIP>

> As a side point, didn't Culberson argue against opeing NT if you had ant
> excuse?

Whereas nowadays, with the Weak NT, the feeling is more to look for
excuses to open 1NT.  (EBUland at any rate.)

Stig Holmquist wrote:

> On 11 Nov 2005 04:40:25 -0800, "John Crinnion" <jcrinnion@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Otis Bricker wrote:
> >
> >><SNIP>
> >
> >> As a side point, didn't Culberson argue against opeing NT if you had ant
> >> excuse?
> >
> >Whereas nowadays, with the Weak NT, the feeling is more to look for
> >excuses to open 1NT.  (EBUland at any rate.)

<SNIP>

> With weak NT opening convention it becomes impossible to
> start with 1C and rebid NT if partner responds in a major.
> Thus it might be better to start with 1D and rebid 2C to suggest you
> hold 4-4 in the minors.
>
> Stig Holmquist

I think one should normally cannibalise a possible fit in the minors as
part of one's all-round general strength as indicated by a bid which
signals 12-14 point range and balanced shape.

Surely partner's Major can be taken care of by Stayman or Jacoby?

On 11 Nov 2005 04:40:25 -0800, "John Crinnion" <jcrinnion@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
>Otis Bricker wrote:
>
>><SNIP>
>
>> As a side point, didn't Culberson argue against opeing NT if you had ant
>> excuse?
>
>Whereas nowadays, with the Weak NT, the feeling is more to look for
>excuses to open 1NT.  (EBUland at any rate.)

There used to be a rule of thumb that a NT opener should have six
honor cards and to deduct 1/2 pt for each missing honor card.
With weak NT opening convention it becomes impossible to
start with 1C and rebid NT if partner responds in a major.
Thus it might be better to start with 1D and rebid 2C to suggest you
hold 4-4 in the minors.

Stig Holmquist

> [Alvin P. Bluthman]
> Actually
> 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25, a Modern count.
> is a minor variation on a count introduced c. 1935,
> the Four Aces Count. To get the 1935 values, just
> multiply the first four by 2/3 to derive
> 3, 2, 1, .5
> and ignore the value of the tenspot. To eliminate
> fractions, double the 1935 numbers, to derive
> 6, 4, 2, 1.
[nigel]
Bamberger is another more accurate modern count
7 5 3 1
developed and promoted by Dr. Paul Stern in 1935,
for his Vienna system :)

Stig Holmquist <stigfjorden@hotmail.com> wrote:


> With weak NT opening convention it becomes impossible to
> start with 1C and rebid NT if partner responds in a major.

Nor would you want to.

> Thus it might be better to start with 1D and rebid 2C to suggest you
> hold 4-4 in the minors.

Why not just open 1NT, the system bid?

--
Gordon Rainsford

London UK

Chris Ryall wrote:


<SNIP>


> That might be quite true in the current UK style of tournament bridge,
> but it is not always theoretically sound if you are vulnerable. If you
> open 1NT vul ... you generally need to make it!


. . .  or wriggle . . . !!!???


<SNIP>

John Crinnion wrote on "Avoiding NT. Re: Do you open : xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx"
>Whereas nowadays, with the Weak NT, the feeling is more to look for
>excuses to open 1NT.  (EBUland at any rate.)

That might be quite true in the current UK style of tournament bridge,
but it is not always theoretically sound if you are vulnerable. If you
open 1NT vul ... you generally need to make it!

See first few stanzas of URL below for the logic of this
--
Chris Ryall - some considerations when opening, or defending 1NT
               http://www.cavendish.demon.co.uk/bridge/1nt-complex.htm

In message <ho+M1WMGwNdDFwJ2@[127.0.0.1]>, Chris Ryall
<groups2@[127.0.0.1]> writes
>John Crinnion wrote on "Avoiding NT. Re: Do you open : xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx"
>>Whereas nowadays, with the Weak NT, the feeling is more to look for
>>excuses to open 1NT.  (EBUland at any rate.)
>
>That might be quite true in the current UK style of tournament bridge,
>but it is not always theoretically sound if you are vulnerable. If you
>open 1NT vul ... you generally need to make it!

Tim West-Meads and I are terrifying ourselves with our mini (10.15-13)
NT at all vuls in 1st or 2nd at imps. We *still* haven't been seriously
nailed (1100 and up) though there are a couple of 800's against 630.
Overall we're substantially plus, as our suit bidding works far better.
I'm beginning to think it's better at imps than mps, which is the
worrying bit.  Cheers john
>
>See first few stanzas of URL below for the logic of this

--
John (MadDog) Probst|      . !     -^-  |AIM GLChienFou
451 Mile End Road   |     /|__.    \:/  |BCLive ChienFou
London E3 4PA       |    / @ __)   -|-  |john:at:asimere:dot:com
+44-(0)20 8983 5818 |   /\   --^    |   |www.asimere.com/~john

Gordon Rainsford wrote:

> nige1 <guthrie@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> > Bamberger is another more accurate modern count
> > 7 5 3 1
> > developed and promoted by Dr. Paul Stern in 1935,
> > for his Vienna system :)
>
> And (for the benefit of those who haven't heard me say this before),
> still in use by members of the Jain community in Mombasa!

So the hand in question, having 3 Aces, is a 21-count and should be
opened 2NT, despite its 9 losers?

nige1 <guthrie@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Bamberger is another more accurate modern count
> 7 5 3 1
> developed and promoted by Dr. Paul Stern in 1935,
> for his Vienna system :)

And (for the benefit of those who haven't heard me say this before),
still in use by members of the Jain community in Mombasa!


--
Gordon Rainsford

London UK

John Crinnion <jcrinnion@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Gordon Rainsford wrote:
>
> > nige1 <guthrie@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Bamberger is another more accurate modern count
> > > 7 5 3 1
> > > developed and promoted by Dr. Paul Stern in 1935,
> > > for his Vienna system :)
> >
> > And (for the benefit of those who haven't heard me say this before),
> > still in use by members of the Jain community in Mombasa!
>
> So the hand in question, having 3 Aces, is a 21-count and should be
> opened 2NT, despite its 9 losers?

You surely don't imagine a mere 21-count is good enough to open the
bidding, do you?


--
Gordon Rainsford

London UK

John Crinnion schrieb:

> Gordon Rainsford wrote:
>
> > nige1 <guthrie@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Bamberger is another more accurate modern count
> > > 7 5 3 1
> > > developed and promoted by Dr. Paul Stern in 1935,
> > > for his Vienna system :)
> >
> > And (for the benefit of those who haven't heard me say this before),
> > still in use by members of the Jain community in Mombasa!
>
> So the hand in question, having 3 Aces, is a 21-count and should be
> opened 2NT, despite its 9 losers?

I am always puzzled in that people have an evaluation method to go with
a system. You can play a system independent of the evaluation method.
Including a new evaluation method with a system just makes it harder to
read :)

Gerben

"John Crinnion" <jcrinnion@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1131712825.919940.263300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Otis Bricker wrote:
>
> ><SNIP>
>
> > As a side point, didn't Culberson argue against opeing NT if you had ant
> > excuse?
>
> Whereas nowadays, with the Weak NT, the feeling is more to look for
> excuses to open 1NT.  (EBUland at any rate.)

Bollocks to all of that. I have a flat 12 count so I open the system 1NT.

Palooka.

I would open this 1st/2nd as I fear otherwise I would never catch up to it
if partner opens later.  It is unclear to me what to do after any opening by
pd, but I esp wonder what response most would make after a 1M opening by pd
in 3rd/4th.

"Tamuel" <bwestling.NOSPAM@comhem.se> wrote in message
news:%rXkf.151832$dP1.509718@newsc.telia.net...
>
> "Stig Holmquist" <stigfjorden@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:4rl4n1pk4ln8ca3p8iv6tm7kil07krb5h4@4ax.com...
> > On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 06:35:15 -0600, Otis Bricker
> > <obricker@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Stig Holmquist <stigfjorden@hotmail.com> wrote in
> > >news:bp92n114gb4ta19370pjgistii7mebfuee@4ax.com:
> > >
> > >> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
> > >> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
> > >> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
> > >> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
> > >> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
> > >> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
> > >>
> > >> Stig Holmquist
> > >
> > >No question in my mind. Its an opening. I open 1N(12-14) but would
> open 1C
> > >if playing strong NT.
> > >
> > >Aces are undervalued.
> > >
> > >Otis
> >
> > Otis and others who would open 1 NT (weak) seem to disregard an old
> > rule that a NT opener should have six honor cards and if not one
> needs
> > to deduct 1/2 pt for each missing honor card.
> >
> > The hand as featured can take only 3 tricks and if partner has 3
> K's
> > they can take only 6 tricks  even though they have 21 HCP together.
>
> Suppose you open 1 NT, partner pass.
> You get just 6 tricks. Opponents score +50 or +100.
> Suppose you pass. Assume opponents end in 1 NT.
> You still get just 6 tricks. Opponents score +90.
>
> If you are non-vul, you should consider opening the bidding as you
> would prefer to pay out 50 rather than 90.
> If you are vul, you might consider passing as you would prefer to pay
> out 90 rather than 100.
>
> However, suppose you get 7 tricks in 1 NT.
> If you bid 1 NT, you score +90
> If they bid 1 NT, you score +50 or +100.
>
> If opponents are non-vul, you should consider opening the bidding as
> you would prefer to collect 90 rather than 50.
> If opponents are vul, you would prefer them to play as you would
> prefer +100 rather than 90.
>
> If all are vul, let the opponents play.
> If none are vul, play yourself.
> If you are vul. but not opponents, you would like to make your
> contract.
> If you are non-vul, but opponents are vul, you would like the side
> who can't make 1 NT to play 1 NT.
>
> You should open with noone vul, and you should pass with all vul.
>
>

"pgmer6809" <pgmer6809@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:1131492843.631274.40090@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> PS did you see the story in the latest Bridge World where the
bidding
> goes
> P-P-P-P
> 2nd seat (who holds AKQJTxxxxx and made an eccentric pass) asks 4th
> seat:
> "What did you have?" "Nothing but 3 Aces and spaces" comes the
reply.
> "And you?"
> "Just a ten count."


Ron Andersen was involved in a game where all passed. 4th seat said
"I had eleven."
2nd seat said "I had ten."
3rd seat (David Berkowitz) said "Only eight over here"
One of the opponents (who clearly was proficient in mathematics) said
to Ron "So, you must have had eleven."
Ron Andersen replied: "No, I had ten." whereafter he tabled
AQJT987652 in hearts.

"Stig Holmquist" <stigfjorden@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:4rl4n1pk4ln8ca3p8iv6tm7kil07krb5h4@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 06:35:15 -0600, Otis Bricker
> <obricker@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
> >Stig Holmquist <stigfjorden@hotmail.com> wrote in
> >news:bp92n114gb4ta19370pjgistii7mebfuee@4ax.com:
> >
> >> Would you open with xxx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in any seat?
> >> Ch. Goren would have told you to deduct 1 pt for the flat shape
> >> and the Bergen "Rule of 20" counts only 19, but if you adopt
> >> the newer pt count scale of 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 then the hand
> >> qualifies for an opening bid in 1st and 2nd seat.But what
> >> would be the merit opening in 3rd or 4th seat?
> >>
> >> Stig Holmquist
> >
> >No question in my mind. Its an opening. I open 1N(12-14) but would
open 1C
> >if playing strong NT.
> >
> >Aces are undervalued.
> >
> >Otis
>
> Otis and others who would open 1 NT (weak) seem to disregard an old
> rule that a NT opener should have six honor cards and if not one
needs
> to deduct 1/2 pt for each missing honor card.
>
> The hand as featured can take only 3 tricks and if partner has 3
K's
> they can take only 6 tricks  even though they have 21 HCP together.

Suppose you open 1 NT, partner pass.
You get just 6 tricks. Opponents score +50 or +100.
Suppose you pass. Assume opponents end in 1 NT.
You still get just 6 tricks. Opponents score +90.

If you are non-vul, you should consider opening the bidding as you
would prefer to pay out 50 rather than 90.
If you are vul, you might consider passing as you would prefer to pay
out 90 rather than 100.

However, suppose you get 7 tricks in 1 NT.
If you bid 1 NT, you score +90
If they bid 1 NT, you score +50 or +100.

If opponents are non-vul, you should consider opening the bidding as
you would prefer to collect 90 rather than 50.
If opponents are vul, you would prefer them to play as you would
prefer +100 rather than 90.

If all are vul, let the opponents play.
If none are vul, play yourself.
If you are vul. but not opponents, you would like to make your
contract.
If you are non-vul, but opponents are vul, you would like the side
who can't make 1 NT to play 1 NT.

You should open with noone vul, and you should pass with all vul.

"Tamuel" <bwestling.NOSPAM@comhem.se> wrote in message
news:SeXkf.151830$dP1.509581@newsc.telia.net...
>
> "pgmer6809" <pgmer6809@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:1131492843.631274.40090@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> PS did you see the story in the latest Bridge World where the
> bidding
>> goes
>> P-P-P-P
>> 2nd seat (who holds AKQJTxxxxx and made an eccentric pass) asks 4th
>> seat:
>> "What did you have?" "Nothing but 3 Aces and spaces" comes the
> reply.
>> "And you?"
>> "Just a ten count."
>
>
> Ron Andersen was involved in a game where all passed. 4th seat said
> "I had eleven."
> 2nd seat said "I had ten."
> 3rd seat (David Berkowitz) said "Only eight over here"
> One of the opponents (who clearly was proficient in mathematics) said
> to Ron "So, you must have had eleven."
> Ron Andersen replied: "No, I had ten." whereafter he tabled
> AQJT987652 in hearts.
>
>
Playing the teams final of the London congress in the late 70's with Dave
Carlisle (anyone seen him recently?) I passed a similar hand to Ron's in 3rd
and it was passed out. Dave peered at both opponents' hands and uttered one
of his usual epithets. Spades were 5-5 and 4th seat was a Walrus. In the
other room team mates overcalled 4H with 4S and we gained a game swing
against a passout. A curious difference in hand evaluation. Can't bid at the
one level but can at the 4-level :)

The scale 4.5-3-1.5-0.75-0.25 is definitely better than the familiar
43210-scale. On the other hand, if you are going to play in notrump you
better use the scale 4-2.8-1.8-1-0.4.

"John Probst" <john@asimere.com> wrote
> Playing the teams final of the London congress in the late 70's with Dave
> Carlisle (anyone seen him recently?)

++++Lives in Aberystwyth.