🚀 go-pugleaf

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 22:45:51 +0000 (UTC), brocpuffs
<brocpuffs@hotmail.com> wrote:

#Hey guys,
#
#I'm surprised how many ppl seem to have read some arrogance or
#perfectionism into my original question about why use gun supports.

***snip***

No offence intended from me, James.

As I implied from my previous post, bench resting a rifle is to test
(or display) the rifle ability by eliminating human error while
freehand/offhand/sitting/prone without a rest is a test of the
marksman.  There are competitions for each category.

Be aware that shooting, like many other sports, have a significant
number of people involved who are highly competitive, possess type A
personalities, and have, perhaps, even a bit of an inflated ego.  Some
categories of this sport, especially bench rest and long range rifle,
are highly technical and require years of study and practice to get to
a competitive level. Just brush off the ill mannered and learn what
you might.

BTW, I still consider 200 yard shots without a rest to be challenging,
but I keep trying. ;-)

Strider


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#I was assuming people would always want to be able to shoot better
#and/or at longer distances. "So," I wondered, "why does everybody seem
#to be shooting with a support that apparently takes most of the
#personal / training side of it, out of the practice?". Hunting, also
#certainly doesn't allow time to set up such equipment.

James,

IMHO shooting with "supports" or rifle rests is done to make sure the rifle's
sights are zeroed in as best is possible.  Once that has been done you can be
reasonably sure that if you miss a shot while hunting it was likely your error
not the rifle's.

Once I've zeroed a rifle's scope/sights I do all other shooting basically
unsupported.  I'll put my elbows on the table and let the sight picture wander
like it will in real life.  There are plenty of folks out there though who like
to always use a rest of some kind, to each his own...

Do what you like and ignore all the "advice" you get from other shooters, bear
in mind that some of that advice may help you though.

Apparently you've caught some flack from other posters.  Screw 'em.  They don't
know you, you don't know them.  We're all mostly anonymous here.  As long as
you're following correct Netiquette no one can really piss and moan about your
posts, and there will always be the "Net Nannies" who think it's their job to
critique everyone else's posts.

My $.02 for today, back into lurk mode.

bill
Car: '64.5 Mustang: 260 V8, 3 sp, factory a/c, SVO cam, Performer intake,
Holley 390 cfm carb, Pertronix, Hi-Po exhaust manifolds, 1.5" front & 1" rear
drop, Jacobs wires, Torq Thrust D's

Guns: Colt AR15, Sig P220, Moss. 590A1, Marlin 70P


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James was saying
#I'm surprised how many ppl seem to
# have read some arrogance or
# perfectionism into my original question
# about why use gun supports.

Oh, I don't think anybody got too whipped up about it.  You just gave a
bunch of guys a good excuse to talk about their hobby.  :)
                            Marty



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brocpuffs wrote:

#Hey guys,
#
#I'm surprised how many ppl seem to have read some arrogance or
#perfectionism into my original question about why use gun supports.
#

Hmmmm.....I just reread that thread and didn't see many posts like that
- two of them I think.  All the others seemed to be giving civil answers
to your question.

#
#Yes I am a frickin' newbie. In my implied mucho-reading (that alone
#was invitation for a comeback!), I noticed most people talk about
#bench/support shooting ONLY.
#
#I assumed that was usual and asked why. I sure as heck don't think 100
#or 200 yard shooting is terrific, people!
#
#I only get to a local range every other week on the average, and for
#just about 4 trips so far. I have to go with someone else who is a
#trapshooting freak and I often get off about 10-15 rounds of .17
#before we move on to the traps range. I was doing pretty dang well
#from the beginning, and proud of that at least,
#
#I was assuming people would always want to be able to shoot better
#and/or at longer distances. "So," I wondered, "why does everybody seem
#to be shooting with a support that apparently takes most of the
#personal / training side of it, out of the practice?". Hunting, also
#certainly doesn't allow time to set up such equipment. Or is that
#wrong too!? Of course its necessary when you want to take the human
#variable out for testing a new gun, overhaul, etc.
#
By shooting from a rest you take out the need to use most of your energy
and consentration to keep upright and steady, this allows you to
concentrate on sight alignment, sight picture, breath control, and
trigger press.  This allows  you to come closer to perfecting  your
basics.  This will in turn help your offhand shooting.

#
#I've seen many remarks about the frequent posting of "best groups", as
#if as if it were commonplace. Which can confuse -  guess who -
#newbies!
#
#If these super-groups were shot with a full support, how do you relate
#them to shooting without a "helper"?  I guess it's assumed one needs
#to know what's going on. So that's what I'm learning here.
#
#I was trying to clear up an impression I got from all the reading I've
#been dutifully doing as a newbie. I didn't think I was THAT hot, guys!
#

It is not the "either or" proposition that you seem to be trying to make
it.  Most shooters seem to enjoy both.


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#Hey guys,

  I'm surprised how many ppl seem to have read some arrogance or perfectionism
into my original question about why use gun supports.

  Yes I am a frickin' newbie. In my implied mucho-reading (that alone was
invitation for a comeback!), I noticed most people talk about bench/support
shooting ONLY.

  I assumed that was usual and asked why. I sure as heck don't think 100 or 200
yard shooting is terrific, people! .....

  I was assuming people would always want to be able to shoot better and/or at
longer distances. "So," I wondered, "why does everybody seem to be shooting
with a support that apparently takes most of the personal / training side of
it, out of the practice?". Hunting, also certainly doesn't allow time to set up
such equipment. Or is that wrong too!? Of course its necessary when you want to
take the human variable out for testing a new gun, overhaul, etc.<


James,

  I'm one dyed in the wool "Position Only Snob".  Why?  Because the sport I
enjoy (NRA Highpower rifle) requires firing from position.  This means for me
to do well, I have to shoot from position as much as possible.  It has made me
a better shooter - and a snob.  Shooting from the bench has little or NO place
in what I want to do.  In fact, shooters firing from the bench make it
difficult or impossible for me to train at my club.  Why?  Because the shooting
benches are fixed in place, and too close together.  Firing from position
sometimes requires that I be forward of the bench line - and this will NOT
happen when the benches are in use.

Over a decade of shooting, I have observed/learned the following:
- Shooters like to do well.  For many, that involves shooting off a bench.
Why?  Because it's faster and easier to do well.  Benching the rifle removes
much of the effects of the shooter's hold out of the equation.
- Practice does not make perfect - perfect practice does.  Unfortunately,
making the time for quality practice takes dedication - more than many people
have in this "instant gratification" world of ours.
- Too many shooters try to gain accuracy and precision through technology.  Few
understand that developing the shooter is as important or more so than buying
the technology. "Instant gratification" rears its ugly head again.
- Speaking of technology, part of the problem is the "bigger is better"
mentality.  A larger caliber rifle does not make a better shooter - in fact, it
usually things worse.  Recoil makes a rifle harder to shoot well, and a hard
recoiling rifle is less pleasant to shoot.  Less trigger time = less
proficiency = lower performance.  A .243, .270, .308, or 30-06 may be less
glamorous than the latest "ultra manglem" round - however, the shooter who
spends more quality time using the smaller rounds will probably wind up being a
better shot.

# I've seen many remarks about the frequent posting of "best groups", as if as
if it were commonplace. Which can confuse -  guess who - newbies!

  If these super-groups were shot with a full support, how do you relate them
to shooting without a "helper"?  I guess it's assumed one needs to know what's
going on. So that's what I'm learning here.<

  I'm not sure if the two can be related - at least not directly.  The effects
of a series of random errors acting together is rarely the sum of the
individual errors.  I understand that one model takes the squares of the
individual errors, adds them together, than takes the square root of the sum.
It seems to work, as the most efficient means of improving one's shooting is by
working on the largest error source first.

  As for smallest groups, I may not shoot 'em the tightest.  I do try to shoot
my "slightly looser groups" on a consistent basis, however.

  Another thing I've learned is that to do well, confidence in your equipment
and yourself is vital.  Many people don't believe in thier equipment, and
either underestimate or overestimate thier ability.  I've lost track of the
number of people that tell me "I'll come to compete when I'm good enough."  No
confidence in themselves.  Here's a couple of hints:
1.  Think like this, and you'll never be good enough.  Competition is different
from shooting from a bench on your own.  The only way to learn how to shoot in
competition is by participating.
2.  Some things are learned by doing, not by reading about them.  Learning how
to shoot in the wind is one of these things.  This skill becomes really
important at distances beyond 200 yards, unless you're a benchrester - then you
had better learn how to read the wind, period.  Since the wind on a range
varies from range to range, the only way to learn how to do it well is by
shooting a lot, at a lot of different places.

  If you really want to get serious about shooting well off a bench, take up
benchrest shooting.  Afterwards, you'll probably never go back to anything
else.  A benchrest rifle is about as related to your factory stock rifle, as a
competition "stock car" is to your family sedan.  The rifles and ammo are
plenty accurate, but the price tag for getting into the sport is pretty steep.
That and the fact that the game seems really tedious makes me not want to try
it.

Asa

Support the US Palma Team!
www.uspalma.com


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brocpuffs <brocpuffs@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<cbkuav$gd$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>...
 > ...
  Snip.
 > ...

  Yo.bro, Don't take it too personal.  On re reading the previous
  replys you got, even the "cheeky" ones had something to learn from.
  Most people go with the flow, and when visiting a range that supply
  rests, then they tryout the rifle/ammo combo. accuracy. I'ts not as
   easy as it looks as any benchrest shooter will tell you.
   So then you will have more of an idea of when you make a good
   shot without a rest.
   I mean it's no use trying to shoot standing, better than your
   rifle will group with a rest.
   Even in the field one should take the best rest possible, for the
   targets sake.
   Some ranges ARE stand and shoot. . . Ie. Silhouette up to 500 yards
   for the rams, would amuse you no end. :-)
   And don't stop when you get home, dryfireing your field rifle and
   noting where you were when the gun clicks, is valuable practise.

    Why not have a "go" at your shotgun mate, most shooting is done
    with the gun at the shoulder. It's much harder to start with the
     butt under your elbow.
     Anyway as long as your shooting, that's the main thing.

      John L.

 > ...


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In article <cblact$5uq$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, Asa wrote:
#
#   I'm one dyed in the wool "Position Only Snob".  Why?  Because the sport I
# enjoy (NRA Highpower rifle) requires firing from position.  This means for me
# to do well, I have to shoot from position as much as possible.  It has made me
# a better shooter - and a snob.  Shooting from the bench has little or NO place
# in what I want to do.

I assume you shoot handloads. Did you test them from position? I was never able
to do that and I've shot a *lot* of 3 position.

# I've lost track of the number of people that tell me "I'll come to compete when
# I'm good enough."  No confidence in themselves.  Here's a couple of hints:
# 1.  Think like this, and you'll never be good enough.  Competition is different
# from shooting from a bench on your own.  The only way to learn how to shoot in
# competition is by participating.

I've seen any number of people practicing endlessly for their grand debut which
never comes.

# 2.  Some things are learned by doing, not by reading about them.  Learning how
# to shoot in the wind is one of these things.  This skill becomes really
# important at distances beyond 200 yards, unless you're a benchrester - then you
# had better learn how to read the wind, period.  Since the wind on a range
# varies from range to range, the only way to learn how to do it well is by
# shooting a lot, at a lot of different places.

If you're a long range shooter you had also better learn to "read the wind
period". Even an over the course shooter needs to read wind at 600.

As Herb Hollister, a noted smallbore shooter once said: "It's more fun when they
go in the middle."


--
Bob Holtzman
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 ......check the price of the beer!"


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In article <cbkuav$gd$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, brocpuffs
<brocpuffs@hotmail.com> writes:

#
#I was assuming people would always want to be able to shoot better
#and/or at longer distances. "So," I wondered, "why does everybody seem
#to be shooting with a support that apparently takes most of the
#personal / training side of it, out of the practice?". Hunting, also
#certainly doesn't allow time to set up such equipment. Or is that
#wrong too!? Of course its necessary when you want to take the human
#variable out for testing a new gun, overhaul, etc.
#
#I've seen many remarks about the frequent posting of "best groups", as
#if as if it were commonplace. Which can confuse -  guess who -
#newbies!
#

Calm down Young'un.  I can give you a very logical reason for bench
shooting. Because it's a range rule where I do most of my shooting.
There are no points where prone, kneeling, or sitting practice is allowed.
Offhand is allowed but you *must* be standing alongside the bench.
Personally I take a home fabricated bipod to the field to use during
hunting trips. But it's the rifles and loads I develop at the bench that
make me confident I can hit the game where I want to.

Other than competition shooters I don't know of anyone who won't take
advantage of an artificial support if it's available. Even they try to use
their bone structure vs muscle support, shooting slings, and tight/stiff
shooting jackets for aids.

If, as a "Newbie", you'll be content with a box-stock rifle and commercial
ammunition as the best you can do, you'll be missing out on a whole new
world of shooting fun. Even so, you'll need to go to the bench, take out as
much of the personal error as possible to see what your *rifle* is capable
of. If the rifle is capable of holding a 1"@100yd group, but the best *you*
can get out of it is 10", it won't help your ego much. But you'll be learning
a lot.

     Bill Van Houten (USA Ret)

 Thermopylae had it's messenger of defeat,               COME AND GET THEM !
 The Alamo had none.




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On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 22:45:51 +0000 (UTC), brocpuffs <brocpuffs@hotmail.com>
wrote:

#If these super-groups were shot with a full support, how do you relate
#them to shooting without a "helper"?

Not relevant.  You will usually see people referring to super groups when
discussing a particular rifle, not a shooter.  It makes sense to use a rest
when zeroing a rifle and obtaining the best groups possible, to see what
the rifle is capable of.

Since few people can shoot better than their rifles, discussing groups
without a rest is not particularly useful, except purely for dick-waving
purposes, and you really don't see much of that around here.  If you want
to brag about what a great shot you are, you don't discuss groups, you
compete.


Mitch



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