🚀 go-pugleaf

I think I disagree with the basic premise.  You need a battle
rifle to engage multiple targets out to 500 yards.

In conflicts with superior forces, when you don't have any
backup to call on, engaging from long range with rifles hasn't
been the successful technique.  Guerilla warfare has.  This
means unexpected fire up close ambush style.  At long range
you will get artillery, or air dropped ordanance on your
position if you fire more than a shot or two.  In up close
guerilla warfare, you are too close for the enemy to use its
capabilities that way.  Only for sniper work will long range
stuff work.

In the American Revolutionary war, it was non-standard
guerilla tactics that worked often.  In Vietnam the same
approach kept the VC in the war long enough to get the
desired result even with lesser forces and more primitive
hardware.  In Iraq, a substantial though inferior army,
was easily overcome by the US forces.  But ambush,
and other guerilla tactics are giving insurgents the ability
to be a continuing problem.  And they have killed far more
soldiers that way than the Iraqi army did.

It seems an assault rifle would be just as useful as a battle
rifle if not more so.  Bolt actions in .308 for sniper work
make more sense than semi-auto's in the larger calibers.
RPG's if you could get them would be more useful too in
the up close battle described in these type scenario's.
Shotguns employed up close might be useful.  Though
there is the problem of body armor worn by modern
soldiers.

I don't claim to have all the answers, or even know that
I am right.  But it occured to me the scenario described
to suggest the best battle rifle, might not be correct or
well thought out.  Would like some discussion of this from
other folks, see what they think about it.

Dennis



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Enfant Terrible <jsmith694@hotmail.com> recommends...

# This from http://www.doingfreedom.com/gen/0702/brifle.html

Excerpt:

    Our requirement for the battle rifle is to be able
    to engage a human target at 500 yards through
    some cover. .... There are a few other cartridges
    which meet our performance requirements,
    including 8mm Mauser (8x57mm) ,.303 British,
    .30-06 {sic}, and 7.62x54 Russian. We will
    consider the .303 British and .30-06, but the other
    two simply are not used in any weapons worthy of
    being modern battle rifles.

As Sportscaster Warner Wolf used to say, you could have turned off your
TV sets right there!

----
- Dean Speir <DeanSpeir@thegunzone.com>
  Formerly Famous Gunwriter / Gun Zone Maintainer
« =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= »
  It's not a perfect world... it's why we _have_ guns!

  The Gunperson's Authoritative Internet Information
      Resource is at http://www.thegunzone.com.



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Great article! Thanks!

Radem

"enfant terrible" <jsmith694@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cbmcle$kdq$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
 > ...




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1st choice, money no object (assuming I win the lottery) FN-FAL in just
about any configuration.

2nd choice (1st choice assuming I have to earn the money :-) M-1 Garand. Has
some drawbacks, but under the assumptions listed would be a fine firearm to
trust.

3rd choice, M-14.

Bob

"enfant terrible" <jsmith694@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cbmcle$kdq$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
 > ...



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Having had some military experience with Bob's 2nd and 3rd option, I'd put
them in the reverse order.  The M14 is just about perfect for this purpose
and almost everything the M1 is in that respect.  Plus those 20 round box
mags are just what the troopers want, 100 rounds without any appreciable
delay.  As for the FAL, I've never fired one, but I hear tell they are prone
to stoppages in dirty conditions. - CW


x"Bob" <dewop@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:cbnl3r$7n6$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# 1st choice, money no object (assuming I win the lottery) FN-FAL in just
# about any configuration.
#
# 2nd choice (1st choice assuming I have to earn the money :-) M-1 Garand.
Has
# some drawbacks, but under the assumptions listed would be a fine firearm
to
# trust.
#
# 3rd choice, M-14.
#
# Bob
x



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On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 23:26:39 +0000, Dean Speir wrote:

# Excerpt:
#     [...] There are a few other cartridges
#     which meet our performance requirements,
#     including 8mm Mauser (8x57mm) ,.303 British,
#     .30-06 {sic}, and 7.62x54 Russian. We will
#     consider the .303 British and .30-06, but the other
#     two simply are not used in any weapons worthy of
#     being modern battle rifles.
#
# As Sportscaster Warner Wolf used to say, you could have turned
# off your TV sets right there!

He obviously meant something which does not qualify for an
extreme exotic. Obviously, you can shoot 30-06 from FN-49,
8mm from Hakim, 7.62x54R from SVT or SVD. The SVD is a
semi-modern rifle even. However, it is tough to recommend
something which cannot be found anywhere. I think I saw
one Hakim in three years of gun shows. Maybe you know a place
which has StG-43 in stock?

Mind that I do not wish to defend the author of the original
survivalist piece. However, it is a fact of life that the
production of military semi-autos in 30-06, 7.62x54R and 7.92
Mauser ceased in 1950s (with small exceptions like the SVD).
Might as well recommend buying up on Browning BAR in 30-06!

-- Pete



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In article <cbnl3e$7mh$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
Dennis  Moore <dmoore@bham.rr.com> wrote:
#I think I disagree with the basic premise.  You need a battle
#rifle to engage multiple targets out to 500 yards.
#
#In conflicts with superior forces, when you don't have any
#backup to call on, engaging from long range with rifles hasn't
#been the successful technique.  Guerilla warfare has.  This
#means unexpected fire up close ambush style.  At long range
#you will get artillery, or air dropped ordanance on your
#position if you fire more than a shot or two.  In up close
#guerilla warfare, you are too close for the enemy to use its
#capabilities that way.  Only for sniper work will long range
#stuff work.

  Perhaps we have a problem with understanding the language.  "battle
rifle" is an *idiom* - referring to a particular type of rifle - not to
"the only rifle that is used in fighting battles".

# ...
#It seems an assault rifle would be just as useful as a battle
#rifle if not more so.

  "assault rifle" is another idiom - it refers to a particular type of
rifle (something along the lines of a compact, robust and reliable
automatic rifle firing a relatively small rifle cartridge.)  (The antis
want to claim that the "assault" word literally defines the purpose of
the rifle and so only people intending criminal assault would get such a
rifle.)

  I think that the use of assault rifles as the primary indiviual arm by
all of the major military forces means that everyone agrees with you
about the usefullness of assault rifles.

#Bolt actions in .308 for sniper work
#make more sense than semi-auto's in the larger calibers.

  If you mean "30 caliber" (vs. .308 Winchester) so the .300 Win. Mag
can be included, then that appears to be in the general "sweet spot" for
sniper rifles - but the 338 Lapua has quite a following and IMHO
shouldn't be overlooked.

  I like bolt actions myself - but I'm not sure that all semi-autos are
ineligible for sniper work.

#RPG's if you could get them would be more useful  ...

  I agree - choose the right tool for the job.
--
--henry schaffer
hes _AT_ ncsu _DOT_ edu


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jsmith694@hotmail.com (enfant terrible) wrote in message news:<cbmcle$kdq$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>...
# This from http://www.doingfreedom.com/gen/0702/brifle.html

What I find amusing is that the guy does go ahead and put the 1917 on
the list.  Since bolt action guns are in the running, why the hell not
the M-N 91/30?  Or the M-38, M-44?  Is the 7.62x54R really that hard
to find?

It also seems a bit extreme having a 500 yard requirement.  That's a
long way out for my eyes.


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