🚀 go-pugleaf

cornerSP@Mmail.com (Reed Kennedy) wrote in message news:<Xns910970979cornermailcom@209.155.56.81>...
> the fly <tsetse51@swbell.net> wrote in <3B893A5D.7AB99452@swbell.net>:
>
> >
> >     Beth put it about as simply as it can be stated.
> >
> >     Torque is twisting force.
> >
> >     One definition of mechanical power is twisting force
> >applied during a measured period of time.
> >
> >     One "horsepower" is 33,000 foot-pounds (torque) per
> >minute (time).
>
> Which means that you generally end up with two choices:  Engines that twist
> really hard, but don't spin very fast, and engines that don't push very
> hard, but make up for it by spinning quite quickly.
>
> To put it in real world terms, a cruiser may have the engine push one
> "shove" worth of power ten times for each time the rear wheel rotates.  He
> has a lot of tourque.  A sportbike, OTOH, may have the engine push 1/2
> "shove" 25 times for each time the rear wheel rotates.
>
> One "shove" times 10 equals:
> 10 "shoves" for each time the cruiser's rear wheel rotates.
> 1/2 "shove" times 25 equals:
> 12.5 "shoves" for the sportbike each time the rear wheel rotates.
>
> The cruiser feels shovier, because the engine is actually pushing hard each
> time.  The sportbike is pushing less each time, but doing so much more
> often, making it more powerful overall.
>
> I hope that made sense to someone besides me.
>
> Reed.

This is a great explanation that I can use...to form yet more
questions!  But it gives me a great starting point.

How then, does horsepower fit in?  And/or, how does the size of the
engine fit in?

Lastly, what's "pushing", and what's it pushing?

(LOL, but I'm serious).

And if I understand it right, a lot of torque does not necessarily
make it a faster bike (?).

Beth wrote:

> Torque is turning force.

R cross F in vector notation.  Curious insofar as
dimensional analysis would lead one to believe it
has units of energy.  One of the places where
that stuff kind of doesn't do the best job.

Or, to put it another way, "Torque means never having to
say 'I'm shifting.' "

Jim

I'm too damn lazy:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/fpte.htm

Torque is turning force.

RPM is a measure of angular velocity.

Think "how hard" and "how fast". Power is "how hard" times "how fast."

-Beth

'00 SV650Y - "Boo-Boo"
'80 CM200T - yet unnamed
http://lonestar.texas.net/~beffie
Mad Beeyotch Mechanic for CMRA Team Greezy Kitty
DoD#4508, NGG Attack Chihuahua, Mad Scientist, IPoM#1

	Beth put it about as simply as it can be stated.

	Torque is twisting force.

	One definition of mechanical power is twisting force
applied during a measured period of time.

	One "horsepower" is 33,000 foot-pounds (torque) per
minute (time).





Event Horizon wrote:
>
> OK folks, I need an EASY explaination of torque.  PLEASE PLEASE
> PLEASE...if you're a mechanical genious, OK, but I likely won't
> understand a single bit of your explanation.
>
> I need an explanation as if you're telling it to a 3rd grader...and as
> it relates to horsepower, etc.
>
> I met a Yamaha cruiser dude who told me "yeah, I have more torgue for
> less horsepower" (I THINK he said that...went immediately over my
> head).  Does this make sense?
>
> I need to begin understanding basic mechanics.  I'm learning about
> everything else BUT mechanics, so I need a start.
>
> Thanks.

the fly <tsetse51@swbell.net> wrote in <3B893A5D.7AB99452@swbell.net>:

>
>     Beth put it about as simply as it can be stated.
>
>     Torque is twisting force.
>
>     One definition of mechanical power is twisting force
>applied during a measured period of time.
>
>     One "horsepower" is 33,000 foot-pounds (torque) per
>minute (time).

Which means that you generally end up with two choices:  Engines that twist
really hard, but don't spin very fast, and engines that don't push very
hard, but make up for it by spinning quite quickly.

To put it in real world terms, a cruiser may have the engine push one
"shove" worth of power ten times for each time the rear wheel rotates.  He
has a lot of tourque.  A sportbike, OTOH, may have the engine push 1/2
"shove" 25 times for each time the rear wheel rotates.

One "shove" times 10 equals:
10 "shoves" for each time the cruiser's rear wheel rotates.
1/2 "shove" times 25 equals:
12.5 "shoves" for the sportbike each time the rear wheel rotates.

The cruiser feels shovier, because the engine is actually pushing hard each
time.  The sportbike is pushing less each time, but doing so much more
often, making it more powerful overall.

I hope that made sense to someone besides me.

Reed.
--
'89 Honda NX650 "Sprout" || DOD #: 10^3
"I'd rather be happy than right any day."
-- Douglas Adams

In article <Xns910970979cornermailcom@209.155.56.81>,
Reed Kennedy <cornerSP@Mmail.com> wrote:

>Which means that you generally end up with two choices:  Engines that twist
>really hard, but don't spin very fast, and engines that don't push very
>hard, but make up for it by spinning quite quickly.

This is NOT necessarily very true.  Look at the torque figures for an
R1 and compare them with a jumped up Harley cruiser of 1.5x the
displacement:

http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcdaily00/00yzfr1dyno.html
http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcharley/mcphotos/00fltrseidyno.html

The R1 gets only SLIGHTLY less torque, for being a MUCH smaller
engine, and it can revv very high so it has much more power.

"Torque" in the motorcycle world is generally used as an approximation
of what is best described as "Low RPM horsepower".
--
Nicholas C. Weaver                                 nweaver@cs.berkeley.edu

Nicholas Weaver wrote:

> "Torque" in the motorcycle world is generally used as an approximation
> of what is best described as "Low RPM horsepower".

i don't mind hearing that an engine is "torquey" but it BUGS the living
HELL out of me when people start talking about torque like it's some
sort of friggin' magical thing. a lot of high power high rev sportbikes
actually make more torque than harleys, just higher up in the rev range.

rant rant rave rave. i know. ;)

-Beth

'00 SV650Y - "Boo-Boo"
'80 CM200T - "Chappah-San"
http://lonestar.texas.net/~beffie
Mad Beeyotch Mechanic for CMRA Team Greezy Kitty
DoD#4508, NGG Attack Chihuahua, Mad Scientist, IPoM#1

In article <6aee72f3.0108260923.27185550@posting.google.com>,
 fourth_quartz@yahoo.com (Event Horizon) wrote:

> OK folks, I need an EASY explaination of torque.  PLEASE PLEASE
> PLEASE...if you're a mechanical genious, OK, but I likely won't
> understand a single bit of your explanation.
>
> I need an explanation as if you're telling it to a 3rd grader...and as
> it relates to horsepower, etc.
>
> I met a Yamaha cruiser dude who told me "yeah, I have more torgue for
> less horsepower" (I THINK he said that...went immediately over my
> head).  Does this make sense?
>
> I need to begin understanding basic mechanics.  I'm learning about
> everything else BUT mechanics, so I need a start.
>
> Thanks.

Have you ever pounded a nail? Well, then, you've applied force to the
nail. If you swung that hammer twice as hard, the nail would go in twice
as fast, which means you applied twice as much power.

Have you ever turned a wrench? Well, then you've applied torque to the
bolt. If you had a bigger or tighter bolt to turn, you could do two
things to get it to turn: either push harder (apply more force) or grab
the wrench farther out (lengthen the "moment arm").

If you weighed 150# and had a foot-long wrench, you could apply a torque
of 150 lb-ft. Likewise, if you stood your 75# kid on the end of a
2-foot-long wrench, he'd apply the same amount of torque on the bolt.
Now he'd have to move twice as far to get the bolt to turn the same
number of degrees than you would.

Now imagine that we gave you both ratchet wrenches set up with
stairmasters for you both. Only you get a 1-foot lever and the kid gets
a 2-foot lever. Now the two of you can race to tighten the bolts. You're
both applying the same amount of torque to the bolt, but since you're
stronger  -- more powerful -- you'll get it turned in faster. The kid
can't move the lever fast enough to keep up with you. Same torque, less
power, slower work done.

The whole torque/horsepower thing can easily (and terribly
unscientifically) be illustrated with different types of horses.
Thoroughbreds are really fast, but would faint if you hitched them up to
a wagon. A Clydesdale, on the other hand, can haul that wagon ... but
not as fast as a racehorse can run. Who's doing more work? Well, they
both have one horsepower...

--
Timberwoof <timberwoof at infernosoft dot com>
a motorcycle faq: http://www.infernosoft.com/timberwoof/motorcycle/faq.shtml

In article <6aee72f3.0108261345.1777e2b6@posting.google.com>,
 fourth_quartz@yahoo.com (Event Horizon) wrote:

> How then, does horsepower fit in?  And/or, how does the size of the
> engine fit in?
>
> Lastly, what's "pushing", and what's it pushing?
>
> (LOL, but I'm serious).
>
> And if I understand it right, a lot of torque does not necessarily
> make it a faster bike (?).

Basic force physics in a nutshell and without too much math:

You're probably already familiar with length or distance, which is
measured in inches, feet, miles, meters, or kilometers.

And you've probably heard of speed which is inches per second, feet per
second, miles per hour, meters per hour, and so forth.

Acceleration is the next logical progression: feet per second per
second, or meters per second per second. Engineers say things like
meters per second squared, or m/s^2, but I promised this would be light
on math.

What's a force? Well, if you want to accelerate a mass, you have to
apply a force to it. So if you have a kilogram (that's how much a liter
of water masses) and you want to accelerate it at 1 meter per second per
second, you have to apply a force of 1 Newton (that's 1 m kg/s^2) to it.

Here's where gravity comes in: Simply because you're near the Earth, it
applies a force to you. The force is equivalent to your mass in
kilograms times 9.81 m/s^2. If you weigh 68 kg, that's ~670 N.

Purists will say the earth is trying to accelerate you downwards (and
even purer purists will say the earth isn't trying to do anything; it
just is) but that the floor is applying a countering acceperation
upwards, and that since everything balances, you aren't going anywhere.
But that gets too complicated for a nutshell.

So here are some basic laws of how things move...

1. An object will keep moving in the same direction and at the same
speed unless something accelerates it.

2. Any acceleration or force in one direction is balanced by an
acceleration or force in the opposite direction.

3. If you have two objects that have mass (we're talking motorcycles and
the Earth here, not priests) they will attract each other
gravitationally:  the closer and heavier they are, the more they
attract.

Your motorcycle is an object with mass. That means
1. it will keep moving in the same direciton at the same speed until you
apply some acceleration to it. Acceleration comes from rolling friction,
air resistance, wind, tire traction, and the occasional SUV if you don't
get out of its way.

2. Any time there's a force in some direction, it needs to be balanced
in the opposite direction, or the bike will accelerate. (I'm speaking of
acceleration in the general sense, not just in going faster forwards.)

3. The Earth is the only object close enough and big enough to matter as
far as gravity is concerned.

If you want your motorcycle to go faster, you have to apply a force to
it. We usually do this by having the engine turn the wheel, and let the
tire traction apply the force to the motorcycle. If you want to
accelerate faster, you need to have more force ... and be able to keep
generating that force while the engine is turning faster and faster.

This is probably a chunk of stuff to swallow, and usually there'd be a
lot of homework and some lab experiments by now. In the mean time, I'd
suggest a high school physics text book. It's all in there... :-)

--
Timberwoof <timberwoof at infernosoft dot com>
a motorcycle faq: http://www.infernosoft.com/timberwoof/motorcycle/faq.shtml

Vey nice, but I think you've misunderstood Mr Newton when it comes to
his 2nd law...


In article <timberwoof.spam-654F10.16393626082001@typhoon.sonic.net>,
Timberwoof <timberwoof.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote:
> 2. Any acceleration or force in one direction is balanced by an
> acceleration or force in the opposite direction.

Better phrased as "it's not possible for something to be pushed by a
force unless something else is being pushed the other way equally as
hard."


> 2. Any time there's a force in some direction, it needs to be balanced
> in the opposite direction, or the bike will accelerate. (I'm speaking of
> acceleration in the general sense, not just in going faster forwards.)

Actually, the force balancing a motorcycle's acceleration is the
motorcycle pushing the whole Earth in the other direction.  Of course it
doesn't make any detectable difference, since the Earth is so big...


If you didn't mean to restate Newton's laws then I apologize.  Of
course, that would mean you were even *more* unclear than I thought :-)

-- Bruce

On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:28:37 GMT, Beth <beffie@texas.net> wrote:

>Nicholas Weaver wrote:
>
>> "Torque" in the motorcycle world is generally used as an approximation
>> of what is best described as "Low RPM horsepower".
>
>i don't mind hearing that an engine is "torquey" but it BUGS the living
>HELL out of me when people start talking about torque like it's some
>sort of friggin' magical thing. a lot of high power high rev sportbikes
>actually make more torque than harleys, just higher up in the rev range.

Try that with a torque wrench.

On 26 Aug 2001 10:23:15 -0700, Event Horizon <fourth_quartz@yahoo.com> wrote:

>OK folks, I need an EASY explaination of torque.  PLEASE PLEASE
>PLEASE...if you're a mechanical genious, OK, but I likely won't
>understand a single bit of your explanation.

It's a large circular piece of jewelry that they used to wear in ancient
times. Rich people had gold ones.

HTH HAND.

--
|Colin Smith:  Colin.Smith@yelm.freeserve.co.uk  |   Windows 2000    |
|My Freeserve web pages:                         |        AKA        |
|http://www.yelm.freeserve.co.uk/                |    The W2K Bug    |

"jim rozen" <jrr0@watson.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:3B895ECE.CF4803C1@watson.ibm.com...

> Or, to put it another way, "Torque means never having to
> say 'I'm shifting.' "

Thank you! I needed that.  My save file is growing!
Mag

Torgue is force. It's the thingy that moves your hiney fast when you
step on the gas. Horespower is the engines ability to generate torgue.
The thing that throws you back in your seat when taking off the line
in a fast vehicle is torque.
 Go test drive a new Corvette, rev it to 6,000rpm and drop the clutch
in second gear, you will see a good example of Mr. torque in action.
Do not eat too much before testing Mr. Torgue or you may end up
projectile  vomiting. Try a modern 1 litre motorcycle for the same
effect and you'll see what I mean. A 1200 cc motorcycle reved to 7,000
RPM in second gear is also a fine example of what Mr. Torque can do
for your rear-end, be sure and have plenty of open road ahead of you
before trying this, however :)

On 26 Aug 2001 10:23:15 -0700, fourth_quartz@yahoo.com (Event Horizon)
wrote:

>OK folks, I need an EASY explaination of torque.  PLEASE PLEASE
>PLEASE...if you're a mechanical genious, OK, but I likely won't
>understand a single bit of your explanation.
>
>I need an explanation as if you're telling it to a 3rd grader...and as
>it relates to horsepower, etc.
>
>I met a Yamaha cruiser dude who told me "yeah, I have more torgue for
>less horsepower" (I THINK he said that...went immediately over my
>head).  Does this make sense?
>
>I need to begin understanding basic mechanics.  I'm learning about
>everything else BUT mechanics, so I need a start.
>
>Thanks.

In article <SRhi7.178225$g_3.31454577@typhoon.austin.rr.com>,
 "Margaret Modisette" <smodisette@houston.rr.com> wrote:

> "jim rozen" <jrr0@watson.ibm.com> wrote in message
> news:3B895ECE.CF4803C1@watson.ibm.com...
>
> > Or, to put it another way, "Torque means never having to
> > say 'I'm shifting.' "
>
> Thank you! I needed that.  My save file is growing!
> Mag
>
>

Actually, a wide torque band allows you not to shift as much. Some
engines can make pretty much the amr amount of torque throughout their
RPM range; others are peaky and have a narrow usable RPM pange.

--
Timberwoof <timberwoof at infernosoft dot com>
a motorcycle faq: http://www.infernosoft.com/timberwoof/motorcycle/faq.shtml

In article <bruce-4AD7A0.23580326082001@news.akl.ihug.co.nz>,
 Bruce Hoult <bruce@hoult.org> wrote:

> Vey nice, but I think you've misunderstood Mr Newton when it comes to
> his 2nd law...
>
>
> In article <timberwoof.spam-654F10.16393626082001@typhoon.sonic.net>,
> Timberwoof <timberwoof.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote:
> > 2. Any acceleration or force in one direction is balanced by an
> > acceleration or force in the opposite direction.
>
> Better phrased as "it's not possible for something to be pushed by a
> force unless something else is being pushed the other way equally as
> hard."

That will work.


> > 2. Any time there's a force in some direction, it needs to be balanced
> > in the opposite direction, or the bike will accelerate. (I'm speaking of
> > acceleration in the general sense, not just in going faster forwards.)

> Actually, the force balancing a motorcycle's acceleration is the
> motorcycle pushing the whole Earth in the other direction.  Of course it
> doesn't make any detectable difference, since the Earth is so big...

That's also true.


> If you didn't mean to restate Newton's laws then I apologize.  Of
> course, that would mean you were even *more* unclear than I thought :-)

I don't care for the standard way Newton's laws are stated. Everybody
knows the bit about "every action causes an equal and opposite reaction,
but that is only meaningful if you already know what it means. :-)

--
Timberwoof <timberwoof at infernosoft dot com>
a motorcycle faq: http://www.infernosoft.com/timberwoof/motorcycle/faq.shtml

On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:12:55 GMT, Timberwoof
<timberwoof.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote:

>In article <6aee72f3.0108260923.27185550@posting.google.com>,
> fourth_quartz@yahoo.com (Event Horizon) wrote:
>
>> OK folks, I need an EASY explaination of torque.  PLEASE PLEASE
>> PLEASE...if you're a mechanical genious, OK, but I likely won't
>> understand a single bit of your explanation.
[...]

>The whole torque/horsepower thing can easily (and terribly
>unscientifically) be illustrated with different types of horses.
>Thoroughbreds are really fast, but would faint if you hitched them up to
>a wagon. A Clydesdale, on the other hand, can haul that wagon ... but
>not as fast as a racehorse can run. Who's doing more work? Well, they
>both have one horsepower...

Excellent examples and appropriate response, TW. Kudos -:)



      01 Sprint ST "RED"
          Bob Nixon
http://members.home.net/bigrex/

Torque ;

When you wake up with an erection,and it's so stiff that when you push down
on it your feet come up off the bed. Thats torque.

JMR

"Timberwoof" <timberwoof.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote in message
news:timberwoof.spam-6B6930.21245026082001@typhoon.sonic.net...
> In article <SRhi7.178225$g_3.31454577@typhoon.austin.rr.com>,
>  "Margaret Modisette" <smodisette@houston.rr.com> wrote:
> > "jim rozen" <jrr0@watson.ibm.com> wrote in message
> > news:3B895ECE.CF4803C1@watson.ibm.com...
> > > Or, to put it another way, "Torque means never having to
> > > say 'I'm shifting.' "
> >
> > Thank you! I needed that.  My save file is growing!
> > Mag
>
> Actually, a wide torque band allows you not to shift as much. Some
> engines can make pretty much the amr amount of torque throughout
their
> RPM range; others are peaky and have a narrow usable RPM pange.

I was referring to my "save because this is witty" file.  Old Love
Story fan!
Magatroid

In article <MPG.15f407f9d7fb2e219898d6@news.vc.shawcable.net>, Cam says...

>Everyone knows that you don't use a torque wrench on a sportbike.  I've
>got a SnapOn horsepower wrench for doing things like that.

i've gotta Mac Slug Wrench myself. (Who can tell the class what unit of measure
a Slug is and which in system it exists?)

ever the Mad Scientist,

-Beffie Hard @ Work
http://lonestar.texas.net/~beffie
'00 SV650 (Boo-Boo the Monster Slayer)
'80 CM200T - Chappah-San!
DoD #4508, NGG Crack Sleuth, CMRA Team Greezy Kitty Mad Scientist

fourth_quartz@yahoo.com (Event Horizon) wrote in message news:<6aee72f3.0108260923.27185550@posting.google.com>...
> OK folks, I need an EASY explaination of torque.  PLEASE PLEASE
> PLEASE...if you're a mechanical genious, OK, but I likely won't
> understand a single bit of your explanation.
>
> I need an explanation as if you're telling it to a 3rd grader...and as
> it relates to horsepower, etc.
>
> I met a Yamaha cruiser dude who told me "yeah, I have more torgue for
> less horsepower" (I THINK he said that...went immediately over my
> head).  Does this make sense?
>
> I need to begin understanding basic mechanics.  I'm learning about
> everything else BUT mechanics, so I need a start.
>
> Thanks.

Engine torque is its ability to make more power.  Let's say your bike
has 100hp and your cruising down the road at 45mph.  Your engine may
be spinning at 4000rpm and only producing say 20hp to maintain speed.
You come up behind someone who's only travelling 40mph and you want to
pass this person quickly.  You want to accelerate to 70mph and blow by
him.  To do this you're gonna need say 60hp which on your engine comes
at 7000rpm.  This is where torque comes in.  How quickly the engine
moves from 20hp to 60hp is based on how much torque the engine
produces.  Note that a low rpm engine produces more torque than a high
rpm engine because less rpm needs to be traversed in order gain the
extra power (assuming both engines produce the same peak horsepower).

Steve

In article <998938618.338192@cswreg.cos.agilent.com>, Ken says...
>
>Event Horizon <fourth_quartz@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>: And if I understand it right, a lot of torque does not necessarily
>: make it a faster bike (?).
>
>Correct.  Think of which types of vehicles have a lot of torque:  Farm
>tractors, diesel trucks, tug boats, Harley Davidson motorcycles.  All
>these vehicles have loads of torque, but don't go very fast.

theoretically, an engine making only one N-m of torque can be engineered and
geared to run at a constant 100,000 RPM and still do the same amount of work as
an engine that makes 100,000 N-m of torque but runs at ONE RPM. "work" being the
phenomenon of exerting a force (linear) on an object and displacing it X amount
away from its original position.

torque is simply with what force something can twist or with what force
something is being twisted. nothing more. nothing less. infinitely simple yet
infinitely complicated.

>Engines with a lot of torque are best suited to towing heavy loads slowly,
>although in practice you rarely see a Harley pulling[1] a trailer[2].

depends how fast they spin when they make peak torque. i think you are mixing up
power with force. at least in how i read this and i don't feel it's an accurate
description of how to envision torque even IF you do understand.

don't get me started. :) i'm REALLY pedantic about these things.

-Beffie Hard @ Work
http://lonestar.texas.net/~beffie
'00 SV650 (Boo-Boo the Monster Slayer)
'80 CM200T - Chappah-San!
DoD #4508, NGG Crack Sleuth, CMRA Team Greezy Kitty Mad Scientist

Geez I thought from all your posts torque can only be created by using a
special "torque wrench"... think I can get my money back?

Cam Penner wrote:

> In article <3bad9020.336535518@tx.news.verio.net>, dbrook@onramp.net
> says...
> > On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:28:37 GMT, Beth <beffie@texas.net> wrote:
> >
> > >Nicholas Weaver wrote:
> > >
> > >> "Torque" in the motorcycle world is generally used as an approximation
> > >> of what is best described as "Low RPM horsepower".
> > >
> > >i don't mind hearing that an engine is "torquey" but it BUGS the living
> > >HELL out of me when people start talking about torque like it's some
> > >sort of friggin' magical thing. a lot of high power high rev sportbikes
> > >actually make more torque than harleys, just higher up in the rev range.
> >
> > Try that with a torque wrench.
>
> Everyone knows that you don't use a torque wrench on a sportbike.  I've
> got a SnapOn horsepower wrench for doing things like that.
>
> ---
> Cam
> '89 RZ 350

Beffie @ Work wrote:
>
> In article <998938618.338192@cswreg.cos.agilent.com>, Ken says...
> >
> >Event Horizon <fourth_quartz@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >: And if I understand it right, a lot of torque does not necessarily
> >: make it a faster bike (?).
> >
> >Correct.  Think of which types of vehicles have a lot of torque:  Farm
> >tractors, diesel trucks, tug boats, Harley Davidson motorcycles.  All
> >these vehicles have loads of torque, but don't go very fast.
>
> theoretically, an engine making only one N-m of torque can be engineered and
> geared to run at a constant 100,000 RPM and still do the same amount of work as
> an engine that makes 100,000 N-m of torque but runs at ONE RPM. "work" being the
> phenomenon of exerting a force (linear) on an object and displacing it X amount
> away from its original position.

Right. You can think of the transmission as a torque converter. Sloppy
casual usage has torque being used as a synonym for low-end power.

<snip>
>
> don't get me started. :) i'm REALLY pedantic about these things.

Now that Demetrios is off on vacation, you're really Dan? Give us a
break!

Al Moore
DoD 734

Beffie @ Work wrote in message <9me12f0vlh@drn.newsguy.com>...
>In article <MPG.15f407f9d7fb2e219898d6@news.vc.shawcable.net>, Cam
says...
>
>>Everyone knows that you don't use a torque wrench on a sportbike.
I've
>>got a SnapOn horsepower wrench for doing things like that.
>
>i've gotta Mac Slug Wrench myself. (Who can tell the class what unit
of measure
>a Slug is and which in system it exists?)
>
>ever the Mad Scientist,
>
>-Beffie Hard @ Work


A slug is the unit of mass in the English system.

Steve O.

In article <6aee72f3.0108260923.27185550@posting.google.com>,
fourth_quartz@yahoo.com says...
> OK folks, I need an EASY explaination of torque.  PLEASE PLEASE
> PLEASE...if you're a mechanical genious, OK, but I likely won't
> understand a single bit of your explanation.
>
> I need an explanation as if you're telling it to a 3rd grader...and as
> it relates to horsepower, etc.
>
> I met a Yamaha cruiser dude who told me "yeah, I have more torgue for
> less horsepower" (I THINK he said that...went immediately over my
> head).  Does this make sense?
>
> I need to begin understanding basic mechanics.  I'm learning about
> everything else BUT mechanics, so I need a start.

Compare it to driving a nail into a board with a hammer.

Torque is how hard you hit the nail.

HorsePower is the combination of how hard you it it, and how fast you
hit it.  It's how many nails you can drive in in a minute.

---
Cam
'89 RZ 350

In article <3bad9020.336535518@tx.news.verio.net>, dbrook@onramp.net
says...
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:28:37 GMT, Beth <beffie@texas.net> wrote:
>
> >Nicholas Weaver wrote:
> >
> >> "Torque" in the motorcycle world is generally used as an approximation
> >> of what is best described as "Low RPM horsepower".
> >
> >i don't mind hearing that an engine is "torquey" but it BUGS the living
> >HELL out of me when people start talking about torque like it's some
> >sort of friggin' magical thing. a lot of high power high rev sportbikes
> >actually make more torque than harleys, just higher up in the rev range.
>
> Try that with a torque wrench.

Everyone knows that you don't use a torque wrench on a sportbike.  I've
got a SnapOn horsepower wrench for doing things like that.

---
Cam
'89 RZ 350

In article <7qbjotkkcbt5ae8smhtu4kdg52jo4hjaee@4ax.com>,
spamcatcher@theposer.com says...
> fourth_quartz@yahoo.com (Event Horizon) wrote:
>
> :
> :
> :I met a Yamaha cruiser dude who told me "yeah, I have more torgue for
> :less horsepower" (I THINK he said that...went immediately over my
> :head).  Does this make sense?
> :
> :I need to begin understanding basic mechanics.  I'm learning about
> :everything else BUT mechanics, so I need a start.
> :
> Torque means never having to say "I shifted."
>
> Seriously, torque is the twisting force that your engine
> transmits to your tires.

There's a transmission in there too that muddies the water....

---
Cam
'89 RZ 350

John wrote:

> Torque ;
>
> When you wake up with an erection,and it's so stiff that when you push down
> on it your feet come up off the bed. Thats torque.

That's not torque... that's 200 lb worth of certified tongue weight...
Larry L
94 RC45 #2
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/-xlax-/

In article <lrni7.507835$lq1.101162161@typhoon.austin.rr.com>,
 "Margaret Modisette" <smodisette@houston.rr.com> wrote:

> "Timberwoof" <timberwoof.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote in message
> news:timberwoof.spam-6B6930.21245026082001@typhoon.sonic.net...
> > In article <SRhi7.178225$g_3.31454577@typhoon.austin.rr.com>,
> >  "Margaret Modisette" <smodisette@houston.rr.com> wrote:
> > > "jim rozen" <jrr0@watson.ibm.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3B895ECE.CF4803C1@watson.ibm.com...
> > > > Or, to put it another way, "Torque means never having to say
> > > > 'I'm shifting.' "
> > >
> > > Thank you! I needed that.  My save file is growing! Mag
> >
> > Actually, a wide torque band allows you not to shift as much. Some
> > engines can make pretty much the amr amount of torque throughout
> > their RPM range; others are peaky and have a narrow usable RPM
> > pange.
>
> I was referring to my "save because this is witty" file.  Old Love
> Story fan! Magatroid

Ah, sorry. I missed a shift. :-)

--
Timberwoof <timberwoof at infernosoft dot com>
a motorcycle faq: http://www.infernosoft.com/timberwoof/motorcycle/faq.shtml

Nick <dukeofurl@ivebeenframed.com> wrote:
: Torgue is force. It's the thingy that moves your hiney fast when you
: step on the gas. Horespower is the engines ability to generate torgue.
: The thing that throws you back in your seat when taking off the line
: in a fast vehicle is torque.
:  Go test drive a new Corvette, rev it to 6,000rpm and drop the clutch
: in second gear, you will see a good example of Mr. torque in action.
: Do not eat too much before testing Mr. Torgue or you may end up
: projectile  vomiting. Try a modern 1 litre motorcycle for the same
: effect and you'll see what I mean. A 1200 cc motorcycle reved to 7,000
: RPM in second gear is also a fine example of what Mr. Torque can do
: for your rear-end, be sure and have plenty of open road ahead of you
: before trying this, however :)

Um, no.  You don't know very much about torque, or how it relates to
force (and therefore acceleration).

See Timberwolf's post for the correct answer.

Ken

Event Horizon <fourth_quartz@yahoo.com> wrote:

: And if I understand it right, a lot of torque does not necessarily
: make it a faster bike (?).

Correct.  Think of which types of vehicles have a lot of torque:  Farm
tractors, diesel trucks, tug boats, Harley Davidson motorcycles.  All
these vehicles have loads of torque, but don't go very fast.

Engines with a lot of torque are best suited to towing heavy loads slowly,
although in practice you rarely see a Harley pulling[1] a trailer[2].

[1]  They're usually _in_ the trailer.

[2]  Most Harley riders don't think it looks cool to pull a trailer.
And since "looking cool" is the main reason for riding a Harley in
the first place, it kind of defeats the whole purpose.

--

Ken Floyd
Livermore, Colorado

Nicholas Weaver confessed to rec.motorcycles:

> "Torque" in the motorcycle world is generally used as an
> approximation of what is best described as "Low RPM horsepower".

In a purely real-world sense, you're right.  But I've got virtually -
no- physics under me, and that description drives me nuts.

Reed.
--
'81 Kawa CSR250 Shitbike, Er... loaner
'88 Yamaha YSR50 Racebike Wasabi Fez, the FezRacer
'78 SR500 Custom "Critta Isshy, AKA Wicked Little Critta" (For Sale)
'89 Honda NX650 "Sprout" || DOD #: 10^3
If you're here for the spelling, you've come to the wrong place.
"My Head Hurts, My Feet Stink, And I Don't Love Jesus." -Jimmy Buffett

Nothing more than feelings..................
Jim ; )

Margaret Modisette wrote:
>
> "Timberwoof" <timberwoof.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote in message
> news:timberwoof.spam-6B6930.21245026082001@typhoon.sonic.net...
> > In article <SRhi7.178225$g_3.31454577@typhoon.austin.rr.com>,
> >  "Margaret Modisette" <smodisette@houston.rr.com> wrote:
> > > "jim rozen" <jrr0@watson.ibm.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3B895ECE.CF4803C1@watson.ibm.com...
> > > > Or, to put it another way, "Torque means never having to
> > > > say 'I'm shifting.' "
> > >
> > > Thank you! I needed that.  My save file is growing!
> > > Mag
> >
> > Actually, a wide torque band allows you not to shift as much. Some
> > engines can make pretty much the amr amount of torque throughout
> their
> > RPM range; others are peaky and have a narrow usable RPM pange.
>
> I was referring to my "save because this is witty" file.  Old Love
> Story fan!
> Magatroid

Beffie @ Work <beffie@texas.net> wrote:

: theoretically, an engine making only one N-m of torque can be
: engineered and geared to run at a constant 100,000 RPM and still
: do the same amount of work as an engine that makes 100,000 N-m of
: torque but runs at ONE RPM.

Yes, transmissions do make a difference, don't they?

In the real world, engines are designed for specific applications. If
you hook up your 1 N-m, 100kRPM engine to a large load it won't have
enough torque to get started.  The 100kN-m, 1 RPM engine, on the other
hand, will have no trouble "getting the load off the line" right from
the get go.

: torque is simply with what force something can twist or with what
: force something is being twisted. nothing more. nothing less.
: infinitely simple yet infinitely complicated.

Torque is force exerted about an axis, multiplied by the perpendicular
distance from the axis of rotation to the point where the force is
being applied.  If torque was simply force [twisting or otherwise] it
would have units of Newtons or pounds.

:>Engines with a lot of torque are best suited to towing heavy loads
:>slowly,

: depends how fast they spin when they make peak torque. i think you
: are mixing up power with force. at least in how i read this and i
: don't feel it's an accurate description of how to envision torque
: even IF you do understand.

There are two things here.  One is the simple definition of torque,
which you stated mostly correctly above.  The second is what it means
practically in an engine.  A practical result of an engine with a lot
of torque at low RPM is less reliance on the transmission to keep the
engine from lugging (and possibly stalling out) at low RPM.

: don't get me started. :) i'm REALLY pedantic about these things.

No need, thanks.  Already have master's in EE.

--

Ken Floyd
Livermore, Colorado

In article <3B8AB798.93AB9FFF@alcatel.com>, david.s.spear@alcatel.com
says...
> Geez I thought from all your posts torque can only be created by using a
> special "torque wrench"... think I can get my money back?

Probably not.  You'll have to take credit towards synthetic blinker
fluid.

---
Cam
'89 RZ 350

In article <9me12f0vlh@drn.newsguy.com>, Beffie @ Work <beffie@texas.net>
wrote:

>In article <MPG.15f407f9d7fb2e219898d6@news.vc.shawcable.net>, Cam says...
>
>>Everyone knows that you don't use a torque wrench on a sportbike.  I've
>>got a SnapOn horsepower wrench for doing things like that.
>
>i've gotta Mac Slug Wrench myself. (Who can tell the class what unit of measure
>a Slug is and which in system it exists?)
>
>ever the Mad Scientist,
>
>-Beffie Hard @ Work
>http://lonestar.texas.net/~beffie
>'00 SV650 (Boo-Boo the Monster Slayer)
>'80 CM200T - Chappah-San!
>DoD #4508, NGG Crack Sleuth, CMRA Team Greezy Kitty Mad Scientist



Anything related to a Dyne?

Charles

--

Charles Soto - Austin, TX *** 1979 KZ650, 1999 GSF1200S, DoD No. "uno"
Free Tibet!*
* With purchase of equal or greater value.  Not available in all stores.
While supplies last.  Void where prohibited by law.  As seen on TV.
(If you can't figure out my email, you should unplug the WebTV and lie down.)

In article <9me12f0vlh@drn.newsguy.com>,
 Beffie @ Work <beffie@texas.net> wrote:

> In article <MPG.15f407f9d7fb2e219898d6@news.vc.shawcable.net>, Cam says...
>
> >Everyone knows that you don't use a torque wrench on a sportbike.  I've
> >got a SnapOn horsepower wrench for doing things like that.
>
> i've gotta Mac Slug Wrench myself. (Who can tell the class what unit of
> measure
> a Slug is and which in system it exists?)

Me, me, me!

The Slug is a derived unit of mass in the American system of units. It
is the amount of mass which will accelerate at 1 foot / sec^2 when a
force of one pound is applied to it. A slug weighs 32.2 lbs.

--
Timberwoof <timberwoof at infernosoft dot com>
a motorcycle faq: http://www.infernosoft.com/timberwoof/motorcycle/faq.shtml

In article <csoto_ihatespam-2F8356.18504827082001@newsr1.texas.rr.com>,
 csoto <csoto_ihatespam@austin.rr.com> wrote:

> In article <9me12f0vlh@drn.newsguy.com>, Beffie @ Work
> <beffie@texas.net> wrote:
>
> >In article <MPG.15f407f9d7fb2e219898d6@news.vc.shawcable.net>, Cam
> >says...
> >
> >>Everyone knows that you don't use a torque wrench on a sportbike.
> >>I've got a SnapOn horsepower wrench for doing things like that.
> >
> >i've gotta Mac Slug Wrench myself. (Who can tell the class what unit
> >of measure a Slug is and which in system it exists?)

Don't you mean a Mack Slug Wrench? My Mac has no slugs on it.

> >ever the Mad Scientist,
> >
>
> Anything related to a Dyne?

No, but "erg" is the noise made by a dyne centimeter.

--
Timberwoof <timberwoof at infernosoft dot com>
a motorcycle faq: http://www.infernosoft.com/timberwoof/motorcycle/faq.shtml

In article <timberwoof.spam-9C27DD.01100328082001@typhoon.sonic.net>, Timberwoof
says...

>Okay, Beffie, you're right. On Jupiter it would weigh more.

well, let's just say that Jupiter's gravity would accelerate the mass with great
vigor (much more vigor than on earth!) toward its moment.

imagine falling through the gaseous layers of Jupiter. it's supposed to have a
solid core.

>> btw, check THIS out: http://www.gravitation.org/ekonst.htm
>
>Yoicks. The implications are astounding. Either that or it's way past my
>bedtime.

here's my take on it: the universe IS. we will get better and better with our
mathematics and applying it to physics to describe what IS for practical
purposes (highspeed travel between solar systems, etc.) but will we really ever
know how accurate we are? the universe is subtle. very, very subtle. and, for
all intents and purposes, it doesn't matter sometimes, as long as our technology
works. as the engineer said in the bad joke "Close Enough!" ;) now, the
Physicist and the Mathematician go nuts at "Close enough" but that's another
discussion all together. when you start thinking about it: THANK GOD for good
engineers!

-Beffie Hard @ Work
http://lonestar.texas.net/~beffie
'00 SV650 (Boo-Boo the Monster Slayer)
'80 CM200T - Chappah-San!
DoD #4508, NGG Crack Sleuth, CMRA Team Greezy Kitty Mad Scientist

Ken Floyd wrote:

> Yes, transmissions do make a difference, don't they?

theoretically, of course.

> Torque is force exerted about an axis, multiplied by the perpendicular
> distance from the axis of rotation to the point where the force is
> being applied.  If torque was simply force [twisting or otherwise] it
> would have units of Newtons or pounds.

yes. okay, off the top of my head (so correct anything you see that's
wrong here - i don't have a book in front of me to remind me), torque is
the cross product of the vectors distance from the axis and force.
applying the right hand rule, the torque vector resides on a plane
perpendicular to the plane defined by the distance and force vector. in
this diagram, the torque "arm" would be stickin' up at ya. i didn't make
them too long because i don't want some random vector pokin' you in the
eye! ;)

  ^<--------
  |
  |
  |

work is the dot product of force applied over a distance and is a scalar
value. or, even better, it's a line integral down the vector AB (where A
and B are points in space where the body initially had the force applied
to where the force was "removed") of F dot X, dX, where F is the
function describing the force applied, constant or variable over the
time of displacement.

power is work performed per unit of time. the simple scalar product. i
was going to use the simple pulley analogy to "spin" this into a
rotating system but (looking below at your Homey Creds - MS in EE? i'm
boring the shit out of you right now!) you and i both know where we're
goin' with that. ;)

we won't touch losses and non-solid object. ;) i'd have to get out the
BOOK for accurately quantifying that!

> There are two things here.  One is the simple definition of torque,
> which you stated mostly correctly above.

rereading my statement "torque is simply with what force something can
twist or with what force something is being twisted", i can see how
someone could misconstrue my words, just as i read your statement as
being possibly taken wrong. :) my bad. write my word in chocolate and
i'll gladly eat them up!

> The second is what it means
> practically in an engine.  A practical result of an engine with a lot
> of torque at low RPM is less reliance on the transmission to keep the
> engine from lugging (and possibly stalling out) at low RPM.

that's the difference between your dang engineers and us mathematicians!
you're PRACTICAL! since i don't give a rat's ass about practicality, i
will use examples that are practically impossible. ;)

> : don't get me started. :) i'm REALLY pedantic about these things.
>
> No need, thanks.  Already have master's in EE.

BS mathematics. minor in physics. i _do_ _not_ question your grasp of
newtonian mechanics! ;) now, what i REALLY want to talk about is
magnetic shielding[1]. *running and ducking for cover*

-Beth

'00 SV650Y - "Boo-Boo"
'80 CM200T - "Chappah-San"
http://lonestar.texas.net/~beffie
Mad Beeyotch Mechanic for CMRA Team Greezy Kitty
DoD#4508, NGG Attack Chihuahua, Mad Scientist, IPoM#1

[1] - remember that "discussion" everyone? ;)

Timberwoof wrote:

> The Slug is a derived unit of mass in the American system of units. It
> is the amount of mass which will accelerate at 1 foot / sec^2 when a
> force of one pound is applied to it. A slug weighs 32.2 lbs.

very good.

in Earth gravity, yes. one slug (sans slime) will exert a force of 32.2
lbs as the Earth's gravity tries to accelerate it towards its moment.
now, WHAT ABOUT "ON"[1] JUPITER!!?!?!?!?!?!?! ;)

btw, check THIS out: http://www.gravitation.org/ekonst.htm

-Beth

'00 SV650Y - "Boo-Boo"
'80 CM200T - "Chappah-San"
http://lonestar.texas.net/~beffie
Mad Beeyotch Mechanic for CMRA Team Greezy Kitty
DoD#4508, NGG Attack Chihuahua, Mad Scientist, IPoM#1

[1] - let's assume you could stand on a surface on Jupter...if there was
a surface and you could stand...

Reed Kennedy wrote:
>
> Nicholas Weaver confessed to rec.motorcycles:
>
> > "Torque" in the motorcycle world is generally used as an
> > approximation of what is best described as "Low RPM horsepower".
>
> In a purely real-world sense, you're right.  But I've got virtually -
> no- physics under me, and that description drives me nuts.

pssst! this is NOT the real world!

-Beth

'00 SV650Y - "Boo-Boo"
'80 CM200T - "Chappah-San"
http://lonestar.texas.net/~beffie
Mad Beeyotch Mechanic for CMRA Team Greezy Kitty
DoD#4508, NGG Attack Chihuahua, Mad Scientist, IPoM#1

_Bob Nixon_ wrote:

> >The whole torque/horsepower thing can easily (and terribly
> >unscientifically) be illustrated with different types of horses.
> >Thoroughbreds are really fast, but would faint if you hitched them up to
> >a wagon. A Clydesdale, on the other hand, can haul that wagon ... but
> >not as fast as a racehorse can run. Who's doing more work? Well, they
> >both have one horsepower...
>
> Excellent examples and appropriate response, TW. Kudos -:)

<me too> that's a good one. </me too>

-Beth

'00 SV650Y - "Boo-Boo"
'80 CM200T - "Chappah-San"
http://lonestar.texas.net/~beffie
Mad Beeyotch Mechanic for CMRA Team Greezy Kitty
DoD#4508, NGG Attack Chihuahua, Mad Scientist, IPoM#1

Larry xlax Lovisone wrote:

> That's not torque... that's 200 lb worth of certified tongue weight...

SHARING VIOLATION! SHARING VIOLATION!

-Beth

'00 SV650Y - "Boo-Boo"
'80 CM200T - "Chappah-San"
http://lonestar.texas.net/~beffie
Mad Beeyotch Mechanic for CMRA Team Greezy Kitty
DoD#4508, NGG Attack Chihuahua, Mad Scientist, IPoM#1

In article <3B8B46F4.3D6F4025@texas.net>, Beth <beffie@texas.net>
wrote:

> Timberwoof wrote:
>
> > The Slug is a derived unit of mass in the American system of units. It
> > is the amount of mass which will accelerate at 1 foot / sec^2 when a
> > force of one pound is applied to it. A slug weighs 32.2 lbs.
>
> very good.
>
> in Earth gravity, yes. one slug (sans slime) will exert a force of 32.2
> lbs as the Earth's gravity tries to accelerate it towards its moment.
> now, WHAT ABOUT "ON"[1] JUPITER!!?!?!?!?!?!?! ;)

Okay, Beffie, you're right. On Jupiter it would weigh more.


> btw, check THIS out: http://www.gravitation.org/ekonst.htm

Yoicks. The implications are astounding. Either that or it's way past my
bedtime.

> -Beth
>
> '00 SV650Y - "Boo-Boo"
> '80 CM200T - "Chappah-San"
> http://lonestar.texas.net/~beffie
> Mad Beeyotch Mechanic for CMRA Team Greezy Kitty
> DoD#4508, NGG Attack Chihuahua, Mad Scientist, IPoM#1
>
> [1] - let's assume you could stand on a surface on Jupter...if there was
> a surface and you could stand...

--
Timberwoof <timberwoof at infernosoft dot com>
a motorcycle faq: http://www.infernosoft.com/timberwoof/motorcycle/faq.shtml

Bruce Hoult wrote:
>
> Actually, the force balancing a motorcycle's acceleration is the
> motorcycle pushing the whole Earth in the other direction.  Of course it
> doesn't make any detectable difference, since the Earth is so big...
>

I can feel it when you go REALLY fast. Slow down. Sometimes it hurts my
back.

Jeff

DwP wrote:
>
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:57:52 GMT, Timberwoof
> <timberwoof.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote:
>
> > A slug weighs 32.2 lbs.
>
> JESUES CHEEEEERIST!  What do you feed a 32 pound slug?

Anything it wants...

Timberwoof <timberwoof.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote in message news:<timberwoof.spam-750C65.14121626082001@typhoon.sonic.net>...
> In article <6aee72f3.0108260923.27185550@posting.google.com>,
>  fourth_quartz@yahoo.com (Event Horizon) wrote:
>
> > OK folks, I need an EASY explaination of torque.  PLEASE PLEASE
> > PLEASE...if you're a mechanical genious, OK, but I likely won't
> > understand a single bit of your explanation.
> >
> > I need an explanation as if you're telling it to a 3rd grader...and as
> > it relates to horsepower, etc.
> >
> > I met a Yamaha cruiser dude who told me "yeah, I have more torgue for
> > less horsepower" (I THINK he said that...went immediately over my
> > head).  Does this make sense?
> >
> > I need to begin understanding basic mechanics.  I'm learning about
> > everything else BUT mechanics, so I need a start.
> >
> > Thanks.
>
> Have you ever pounded a nail? Well, then, you've applied force to the
> nail. If you swung that hammer twice as hard, the nail would go in twice
> as fast, which means you applied twice as much power.
>
> Have you ever turned a wrench? Well, then you've applied torque to the
> bolt. If you had a bigger or tighter bolt to turn, you could do two
> things to get it to turn: either push harder (apply more force) or grab
> the wrench farther out (lengthen the "moment arm").
>
> If you weighed 150# and had a foot-long wrench, you could apply a torque
> of 150 lb-ft. Likewise, if you stood your 75# kid on the end of a
> 2-foot-long wrench, he'd apply the same amount of torque on the bolt.
> Now he'd have to move twice as far to get the bolt to turn the same
> number of degrees than you would.
>
> Now imagine that we gave you both ratchet wrenches set up with
> stairmasters for you both. Only you get a 1-foot lever and the kid gets
> a 2-foot lever. Now the two of you can race to tighten the bolts. You're
> both applying the same amount of torque to the bolt, but since you're
> stronger  -- more powerful -- you'll get it turned in faster. The kid
> can't move the lever fast enough to keep up with you. Same torque, less
> power, slower work done.
>
> The whole torque/horsepower thing can easily (and terribly
> unscientifically) be illustrated with different types of horses.
> Thoroughbreds are really fast, but would faint if you hitched them up to
> a wagon. A Clydesdale, on the other hand, can haul that wagon ... but
> not as fast as a racehorse can run. Who's doing more work? Well, they
> both have one horsepower...

Another response I love...THAT explanation works great for me, the whole thing.

Anytime examples are given, it makes learning almost anything SO much easier.

Thanks.

On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:57:52 GMT, Timberwoof
<timberwoof.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote:

> A slug weighs 32.2 lbs.

JESUES CHEEEEERIST!  What do you feed a 32 pound slug?