🚀 go-pugleaf

On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 10:33:22 +0100
alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> A master class by Jaguar cars and learning nothing from the Bud Light
> campaign
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ0lEO2uaKY
>
> (Note: it's a biased video in favour of ICE vehicles but highlights
> the reason why Jaguar sales have fallen by 98%)
>
>

Whatever business you are in, stopping production of your current lines
*before* being ready to produce new lines would seem to be an error.

'Clean break' means a clean break in your revenue.

--
Joe

alan_m wrote:

> A master class by Jaguar cars and learning nothing from the Bud Light
> campaign
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ0lEO2uaKY
>
> (Note: it's a biased video in favour of ICE vehicles but highlights the
> reason why Jaguar sales have fallen by 98%)
I though they halted all vehicle production?

alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
> A master class by Jaguar cars and learning nothing from the Bud Light
> campaign
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ0lEO2uaKY
>
> (Note: it's a biased video in favour of ICE vehicles but highlights the
> reason why Jaguar sales have fallen by 98%)

Jaguar sales:

FY 2018/19: 180198
FY 2019/20: 140193
FY 2020/21: 97669
FY 2021/22: 77381
FY 2022/23: 62521
FY 2023/24: 66866
FY 2024/25: 48445

So no matter what old guys on the internet may say, they weren't buying the
cars.  When your sales have already fallen off a cliff and you're (maybe)
making a loss on every sale, better to turn off the factory and retool for
something new. It remains to be seen whether the new something is
profitable, but it doesn't matter if people who would never buy the cars
don't like it.  Nothing to do with 'woke'.

Theo

On 02/07/2025 20:25, Theo wrote:
> Jaguar sales:
>
> FY 2018/19: 180198
> FY 2019/20: 140193
> FY 2020/21: 97669
> FY 2021/22: 77381
> FY 2022/23: 62521
> FY 2023/24: 66866
> FY 2024/25: 48445
>
> So no matter what old guys on the internet may say, they weren't buying the
> cars.  When your sales have already fallen off a cliff and you're (maybe)
> making a loss on every sale, better to turn off the factory and retool for
> something new. It remains to be seen whether the new something is
> profitable, but it doesn't matter if people who would never buy the cars
> don't like it.  Nothing to do with 'woke'.

If you look carefully, that was the time when Jaguars image  of a
manufacturer of fast luxury saloons and coupes was being bent by the
introduction of fairly poor hybrids and battery models and things that
looked like a hatchback on steroids.

That was pure essence of 'woke'.

The latest offerings are an insult to Jaguars heritage. And its loyal
customer base.

They urinated on their existing customers and failed to attract any new
ones.

Because they thought their market gave a fuck about 'eco' issues. Or
that that would sell indifferent cars


--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 02/07/2025 20:25, Theo wrote:
> > Jaguar sales:
> >
> > FY 2018/19: 180198
> > FY 2019/20: 140193
> > FY 2020/21: 97669
> > FY 2021/22: 77381
> > FY 2022/23: 62521
> > FY 2023/24: 66866
> > FY 2024/25: 48445
> >
> > So no matter what old guys on the internet may say, they weren't buying the
> > cars.  When your sales have already fallen off a cliff and you're (maybe)
> > making a loss on every sale, better to turn off the factory and retool for
> > something new. It remains to be seen whether the new something is
> > profitable, but it doesn't matter if people who would never buy the cars
> > don't like it.  Nothing to do with 'woke'.
>
> If you look carefully, that was the time when Jaguars image  of a
> manufacturer of fast luxury saloons and coupes was being bent by the
> introduction of fairly poor hybrids and battery models and things that
> looked like a hatchback on steroids.
>
> That was pure essence of 'woke'.

They may be a crap product, but can you explain how hatchbacks on steroids
are woke?  Hybrids and EVs are being pushed by regulators - they have no
choice but to comply otherwise they get big fines.  Every other manufacturer
is doing the same.  The market isn't buying saloons because they want SUVs
and crossovers but Jaguar can't move into that territory without stepping on
Range Rover's toes.  RR sales are doing fine.

Or is 'woke' a synonym for 'things I don't like'?

> The latest offerings are an insult to Jaguars heritage. And its loyal
> customer base.
>
> They urinated on their existing customers and failed to attract any new
> ones.

Their existing customers are now old and not buying new cars any more.  The
lack of new ones is the problem.  It isn't a given that doing the same
formula all over again is going work - they'd need to attract younger
customers away from BMW etc.  Seems they've decided they just can't compete
in that segment.

It seems like they instead want to attract wealthier foreign customers from
Lamborghini, Bentley etc, which is...  an approach.  No idea whether it'll
work, but I'm not in the target market for either so I don't matter.

> Because they thought their market gave a fuck about 'eco' issues. Or
> that that would sell indifferent cars

'Woke' is neither here nor there, it's matching cars to the market that's
the problem.  The market is completely different from 10 years ago - BMW,
Mercedes, Audi, Porsche have changed.  Jaguar needs to, and fast.

Theo

On 03/07/2025 11:14, Theo wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 02/07/2025 20:25, Theo wrote:
>>> Jaguar sales:
>>>
>>> FY 2018/19: 180198
>>> FY 2019/20: 140193
>>> FY 2020/21: 97669
>>> FY 2021/22: 77381
>>> FY 2022/23: 62521
>>> FY 2023/24: 66866
>>> FY 2024/25: 48445
>>>
>>> So no matter what old guys on the internet may say, they weren't buying the
>>> cars.  When your sales have already fallen off a cliff and you're (maybe)
>>> making a loss on every sale, better to turn off the factory and retool for
>>> something new. It remains to be seen whether the new something is
>>> profitable, but it doesn't matter if people who would never buy the cars
>>> don't like it.  Nothing to do with 'woke'.
>>
>> If you look carefully, that was the time when Jaguars image  of a
>> manufacturer of fast luxury saloons and coupes was being bent by the
>> introduction of fairly poor hybrids and battery models and things that
>> looked like a hatchback on steroids.
>>
>> That was pure essence of 'woke'.
>
> They may be a crap product, but can you explain how hatchbacks on steroids
> are woke?  Hybrids and EVs are being pushed by regulators - they have no
> choice but to comply otherwise they get big fines.  Every other manufacturer
> is doing the same.  The market isn't buying saloons because they want SUVs
> and crossovers but Jaguar can't move into that territory without stepping on
> Range Rover's toes.  RR sales are doing fine.

They could have done a hybrid/EV luxury fast saloon, like a tesla. They
chose I-pace F-pace and E-pace.

Basically smashing into the range rover market


>
> Or is 'woke' a synonym for 'things I don't like'?
>
>> The latest offerings are an insult to Jaguars heritage. And its loyal
>> customer base.
>>
>> They urinated on their existing customers and failed to attract any new
>> ones.
>
> Their existing customers are now old and not buying new cars any more.  The
> lack of new ones is the problem.  It isn't a given that doing the same
> formula all over again is going work - they'd need to attract younger
> customers away from BMW etc.  Seems they've decided they just can't compete
> in that segment.
You assert that, but it simply isn't true

>
> It seems like they instead want to attract wealthier foreign customers from
> Lamborghini, Bentley etc, which is...  an approach.  No idea whether it'll
> work, but I'm not in the target market for either so I don't matter.
>
>> Because they thought their market gave a fuck about 'eco' issues. Or
>> that that would sell indifferent cars
>
> 'Woke' is neither here nor there, it's matching cars to the market that's
> the problem.  The market is completely different from 10 years ago - BMW,
> Mercedes, Audi, Porsche have changed.  Jaguar needs to, and fast.
>
Exactly. They thought their market was 'woke' and would respond well to
'eco' cars.
It isn't. Its unashamedly as petrol head as its allowed to be.

And a market that is driven solely by regulation, and not by customer
choice, is exactly one in which
- second hand cars retain value because they aren't making them any more
- market is limited to people who have to buy a new car
- market may collapse at a whim of government policy.

No o=wonder no one wants to buy one

> Theo

--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 03/07/2025 11:14, Theo wrote:
> > They may be a crap product, but can you explain how hatchbacks on steroids
> > are woke?  Hybrids and EVs are being pushed by regulators - they have no
> > choice but to comply otherwise they get big fines.  Every other manufacturer
> > is doing the same.  The market isn't buying saloons because they want SUVs
> > and crossovers but Jaguar can't move into that territory without stepping on
> > Range Rover's toes.  RR sales are doing fine.
>
> They could have done a hybrid/EV luxury fast saloon, like a tesla. They
> chose I-pace F-pace and E-pace.
>
> Basically smashing into the range rover market

Let's look at Autotrader, cars made in the last 5 years:

Total cars for sale: 454299
Cars for sale made 2020-2025: 220562 (includes new car listings, but similar
numbers if I exclude them)

filter by body type:
Convertible: 2336
Coupe: 4190
Estate: 9350
Hatchback: 61824
MPV: 2987
Pickup: 4396
Saloon: 11919
SUV: 120221
Combi van: 2032
Camper: 150
Car derived van: 112
Minibus: 648
Panel van: 1

Saloon cars are a dying market.  That's why the *-pace are all crossovers or
SUVs, because they outsell saloons 10 to 1.

Of the saloon market, the top numbers are:
BMW: 4176
Mercedes: 2886
Audi: 1889
Tesla: 1437
Porsche: 384
Lexus: 165
Hyundai: 149
BYD: 139
Jaguar: 110

So Jaguar saloons are 0.1% compared with the SUV market, and 2.6% of the
sales of BMW saloons.

If I pick 2024 only:

SUVs: 24286
Saloons: 2069

Saloons:
BMW: 766
M-B: 622
Audi: 359
Tesla: 82
...
Jaguar: 18

SUVs:
Audi: 1236
BMW: 1189
Ford: 1475
Hyundai: 1267
Kia: 1796
Land Rover: 1304 (includes R-R)
M-B: 1014
MG: 1041
Peugot: 1068
Nissan: 1759
Skoda: 1334
VW: 1834
Volvo: 1651
...
Jaguar: 213

so even Jaguar's SUVs are massively outselling their saloons 10 to 1, but still at
20% of the rate of other manufacturers.


> > Or is 'woke' a synonym for 'things I don't like'?
> >
> >> The latest offerings are an insult to Jaguars heritage. And its loyal
> >> customer base.
> >>
> >> They urinated on their existing customers and failed to attract any new
> >> ones.
> >
> > Their existing customers are now old and not buying new cars any more.  The
> > lack of new ones is the problem.  It isn't a given that doing the same
> > formula all over again is going work - they'd need to attract younger
> > customers away from BMW etc.  Seems they've decided they just can't compete
> > in that segment.
> You assert that, but it simply isn't true

I think the numbers above speak for themselves.  Nobody is buying saloons,
so there's no point trying to make them in volume.  If even BMW can't sell
them in quantity compared with SUVs then Jaguar certainly can't.

> > It seems like they instead want to attract wealthier foreign customers from
> > Lamborghini, Bentley etc, which is...  an approach.  No idea whether it'll
> > work, but I'm not in the target market for either so I don't matter.
> >
> >> Because they thought their market gave a fuck about 'eco' issues. Or
> >> that that would sell indifferent cars
> >
> > 'Woke' is neither here nor there, it's matching cars to the market that's
> > the problem.  The market is completely different from 10 years ago - BMW,
> > Mercedes, Audi, Porsche have changed.  Jaguar needs to, and fast.
> >
> Exactly. They thought their market was 'woke' and would respond well to
> 'eco' cars.
> It isn't. Its unashamedly as petrol head as its allowed to be.

Loud petrol heads on the internet haven't been buying the cars, even when
they were available.  They are no longer allowed to make old fashioned
petrol cars, and people don't buy old shape cars any more.  Hence they have
to try something new.

> And a market that is driven solely by regulation, and not by customer
> choice, is exactly one in which
> - second hand cars retain value because they aren't making them any more
> - market is limited to people who have to buy a new car
> - market may collapse at a whim of government policy.

There's no point chasing a market that left us 10+ years ago, it's gone.

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>
> I think the numbers above speak for themselves.  Nobody is buying saloons,
> so there's no point trying to make them in volume.  If even BMW can't sell
> them in quantity compared with SUVs then Jaguar certainly can't.
>

When it comes to EVs, I’m not sure if the predominance of SUVs is down to
buyer preference for a big car or manufacturers trying to meet the needs of
a people who think that they need a 250 mile range minimum.

Getting that kind of range with current battery tech means a big, heavy
battery and it’s easier to fit it into an SUV style car than a more
ordinary sized saloon.

I’m sure that if a Ford Focus or Fiesta sized EV was produced with a 250
mile range was produced it would sell like hotcakes but “range anxiety”
still has a strong influence over buyers decision making. As the charging
network improves (and charging speed)and folk start to realise that range
isn’t such a big issue then maybe we’ll start to see more saloon cars.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 3 Jul 2025 at 22:31:45 BST, Tim+ wrote:

> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I think the numbers above speak for themselves.  Nobody is buying saloons,
>> so there's no point trying to make them in volume.  If even BMW can't sell
>> them in quantity compared with SUVs then Jaguar certainly can't.
>>
>
> When it comes to EVs, I’m not sure if the predominance of SUVs is down to
> buyer preference for a big car or manufacturers trying to meet the needs of
> a people who think that they need a 250 mile range minimum.
>
> Getting that kind of range with current battery tech means a big, heavy
> battery and it’s easier to fit it into an SUV style car than a more
> ordinary sized saloon.
>
> I’m sure that if a Ford Focus or Fiesta sized EV was produced with a 250
> mile range was produced it would sell like hotcakes but “range anxiety”
> still has a strong influence over buyers decision making. As the charging
> network improves (and charging speed)and folk start to realise that range
> isn’t such a big issue then maybe we’ll start to see more saloon cars.
>

The 52kWh Renault 5 is >250 miles claimed, and quite a few over 200 - Peugeot
205/Astra for example. Wouldn't fancy putting that to the test on a winter's
motorway run, mind.

--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

"If economists were held in the same regard as medical
 practitioners, our courts would be overwhelmed with malpractice suits" -- unknown

On 03/07/2025 in message
<899997949.773270564.451833.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net>
Tim+ wrote:

>I’m sure that if a Ford Focus or Fiesta sized EV was produced with a 250
>mile range was produced it would sell like hotcakes but “range anxiety”
>still has a strong influence over buyers decision making. As the charging
>network improves (and charging speed)and folk start to realise that range
>isn’t such a big issue then maybe we’ll start to see more saloon cars.

Nobody has “range anxiety” with ICE cars because you can refuel
anywhere within a matter of minutes. Once that becomes true for EV's
people's views will change.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
The only thing necessary for evil to prevail is for good people to do or
say nothing. (Edmund Burke)

Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
> On 03/07/2025 in message
> <899997949.773270564.451833.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net>
> Tim+ wrote:
>
>> I’m sure that if a Ford Focus or Fiesta sized EV was produced with a 250
>> mile range was produced it would sell like hotcakes but “range anxiety”
>> still has a strong influence over buyers decision making. As the charging
>> network improves (and charging speed)and folk start to realise that range
>> isn’t such a big issue then maybe we’ll start to see more saloon cars.
>
> Nobody has “range anxiety” with ICE cars because you can refuel
> anywhere within a matter of minutes. Once that becomes true for EV's
> people's views will change.

The only snag with that is…

…charge at home = really cheap

…charge at a network charger…up to 90p/kWh

It’s like paying £13:50 per litre of petrol.

--
Spike

On 4 Jul 2025 at 09:10:25 BST, Spike wrote:

> Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>> On 03/07/2025 in message
>> <899997949.773270564.451833.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net>
>> Tim+ wrote:
>>
>>> I’m sure that if a Ford Focus or Fiesta sized EV was produced with a 250
>>> mile range was produced it would sell like hotcakes but “range anxiety”
>>> still has a strong influence over buyers decision making. As the charging
>>> network improves (and charging speed)and folk start to realise that range
>>> isn’t such a big issue then maybe we’ll start to see more saloon cars.
>>
>> Nobody has “range anxiety” with ICE cars because you can refuel
>> anywhere within a matter of minutes. Once that becomes true for EV's
>> people's views will change.
>
> The only snag with that is…
>
> …charge at home = really cheap
>
> …charge at a network charger…up to 90p/kWh
>
> It’s like paying £13:50 per litre of petrol.

Gallon?

On 2025-07-03 22:31, Tim+ wrote:
...

> I’m sure that if a Ford Focus or Fiesta sized EV was produced with a 250
> mile range was produced it would sell like hotcakes

My Zoe is Fiesta-sized (4 metres, B segment) with 240-mile quoted range

> but “range anxiety”
> still has a strong influence over buyers decision making. As the charging
> network improves (and charging speed) and folk start to realise that range
> isn’t such a big issue then maybe we’ll start to see more saloon cars.
>
> Tim
>

Exactly!

nib

nib wrote:

> My Zoe is Fiesta-sized (4 metres, B segment) with 240-mile quoted range

Weren't we told that when the WLTP came in (for hydrocarbon and EV cars)
that consumption and range figures would be realistic?  Seems they're
basically still lies, and you need to knock 1/3 off ...

Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
> Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>> On 03/07/2025 in message
>> <899997949.773270564.451833.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net>
>> Tim+ wrote:
>>
>>> I’m sure that if a Ford Focus or Fiesta sized EV was produced with a 250
>>> mile range was produced it would sell like hotcakes but “range anxiety”
>>> still has a strong influence over buyers decision making. As the charging
>>> network improves (and charging speed)and folk start to realise that range
>>> isn’t such a big issue then maybe we’ll start to see more saloon cars.
>>
>> Nobody has “range anxiety” with ICE cars because you can refuel
>> anywhere within a matter of minutes. Once that becomes true for EV's
>> people's views will change.
>
> The only snag with that is…
>
> …charge at home = really cheap
>
> …charge at a network charger…up to 90p/kWh

Indeed, “up to…”.  A Firstbus depot in Glasgow is now open to the public
@39p/kWh.


>
> It’s like paying £13:50 per litre.

No it’s not.

Tim



--
Please don't feed the trolls

RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
> On 4 Jul 2025 at 09:10:25 BST, Spike wrote:
>
>> Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>>> On 03/07/2025 in message
>>> <899997949.773270564.451833.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net>
>>> Tim+ wrote:
>>>
>>>> I’m sure that if a Ford Focus or Fiesta sized EV was produced with a 250
>>>> mile range was produced it would sell like hotcakes but “range anxiety”
>>>> still has a strong influence over buyers decision making. As the charging
>>>> network improves (and charging speed)and folk start to realise that range
>>>> isn’t such a big issue then maybe we’ll start to see more saloon cars.
>>>
>>> Nobody has “range anxiety” with ICE cars because you can refuel
>>> anywhere within a matter of minutes. Once that becomes true for EV's
>>> people's views will change.
>>
>> The only snag with that is…
>>
>> …charge at home = really cheap
>>
>> …charge at a network charger…up to 90p/kWh
>>
>> It’s like paying £13:50 per litre of petrol.
>
> Gallon?

Charge car at home, say 15p/kWh, get 5miles/kWh =3p/mile.

Petrol car = 9mile/£1:35litre, = 15p/mile

Public charger up to 90p/kWh = 18p/mile

Not as bad as I first thought, but does show the real cost of public
charging, say 6x that of home charging. Those on EV tariffs will have a
much greater gain.

--
Spike

On 2025-07-04 09:10, Spike wrote:
> Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>> On 03/07/2025 in message
>> <899997949.773270564.451833.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net>
>> Tim+ wrote:
>>
>>> I’m sure that if a Ford Focus or Fiesta sized EV was produced with a 250
>>> mile range was produced it would sell like hotcakes but “range anxiety”
>>> still has a strong influence over buyers decision making. As the charging
>>> network improves (and charging speed)and folk start to realise that range
>>> isn’t such a big issue then maybe we’ll start to see more saloon cars.
>>
>> Nobody has “range anxiety” with ICE cars because you can refuel
>> anywhere within a matter of minutes. Once that becomes true for EV's
>> people's views will change.
>
> The only snag with that is…
>
> …charge at home = really cheap
>
> …charge at a network charger…up to 90p/kWh
>
> It’s like paying £13:50 per litre of petrol.
>

No - that's more like £3.30 per litre (based on 3 mi/kWh and 11 mi/L).

And remember, unless you're quite unusual, that's a tiny fraction of
your energy cost, most of which will be based on at home (15p/kWh for me
at the moment) or residential street overnight charging (which is about
44p/kWh here on BP Pulse).

nib

Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:
> Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>> Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>>> On 03/07/2025 in message
>>> <899997949.773270564.451833.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net>
>>> Tim+ wrote:
>>>
>>>> I’m sure that if a Ford Focus or Fiesta sized EV was produced with a 250
>>>> mile range was produced it would sell like hotcakes but “range anxiety”
>>>> still has a strong influence over buyers decision making. As the charging
>>>> network improves (and charging speed)and folk start to realise that range
>>>> isn’t such a big issue then maybe we’ll start to see more saloon cars.
>>>
>>> Nobody has “range anxiety” with ICE cars because you can refuel
>>> anywhere within a matter of minutes. Once that becomes true for EV's
>>> people's views will change.
>>
>> The only snag with that is…
>>
>> …charge at home = really cheap
>>
>> …charge at a network charger…up to 90p/kWh
>
> Indeed, “up to…”.  A Firstbus depot in Glasgow is now open to the public
> @39p/kWh.
>
>
>>
>> It’s like paying £13:50 per litre.
>
> No it’s not.
>
> Tim
>
>
>

The nearest charger to me is 88p/kWh. The next nearest is 86p/kWh. One a
few miles away was 7p/kWh but has disappeared off the network.

--
Spike

On Fri, 7/4/2025 6:09 AM, alan_m wrote:
> On 04/07/2025 04:08, RJH wrote:
>
>
>>
>> The 52kWh Renault 5 is >250 miles claimed, and quite a few over 200 - Peugeot
>> 205/Astra for example. Wouldn't fancy putting that to the test on a winter's
>> motorway run, mind.
>>
>
> Range simulator for megane-electric
> https://www.renault.co.uk/electric-vehicles/megane-electric/range-charge-simulator.html
>
> Gives some idea of range under certain conditions
> The default setting is 100% charge which may be appropriate for a long journey (the charge can be changed).
>
> At an ambient temperature of 20C, eco mode = on, 100% charge
> Town driving = 290 miles
> Motorway driving = 200 miles
>
> At an ambient temperature of 5C, eco mode = on, 100% charge, heater on
> Town driving = 170 miles
> Motorway driving = 175 miles (yes more miles than town driving)
>
> They claim 30 minutes on a motorway charger will give 160 miles (rapid charger 130kW DC, 350A) but with a 11kW charger 4 hours for 160 miles.
>
> They do mention the simulated figures would change based on how the vehicle is loaded*, weather conditions and driving style.
> There is no mention of how low the battery charge has become at those ranges.
>
> My concern with range and battery usage is that I regularly do 250 mile journeys and more than once I have been stuck on motorways for 2+ hours more than my normal journey times. Not a problem in a ICE car with a full tank giving me 400+ miles but maybe a problem if the delay is when the battery is getting low.
> Playing around it seems the heater in winter takes a fair bit of the battery in town driving, 280 miles with the heater off, 170 miles with the heater on. Much less difference for motorway driving as I assume that that the range is being covered in a much shorter time at 70mph and therefor the heater is only on for a couple of hours. I wouldn't want to to be stuck on a motorway crawling along at 10mph with the heater on for a couple of hours :(
>
> *On holiday recently the driver mentioned how sluggish the car felt with 3 adults, a dog, a boot full of luggage, and a streamlined roof box :)
>

This will do 620 miles. It's a prototype.

https://gearjunkie.com/motors/mercedes-vision-eqxx-prototype-first-drive-review

    100kWh battery pack

    0.17 coefficient of drag

    mass  3,858 pounds

    single motor

The prototype even has solar panels.

The feature of that, is the ordinary size of the battery pack.

And you wouldn't put a roof box on it.

You would put a roof box on a Cybertruck.

   Paul

Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
> Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:
>> Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>>> Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>> On 03/07/2025 in message
>>>> <899997949.773270564.451833.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net>
>>>> Tim+ wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I’m sure that if a Ford Focus or Fiesta sized EV was produced with a 250
>>>>> mile range was produced it would sell like hotcakes but “range anxiety”
>>>>> still has a strong influence over buyers decision making. As the charging
>>>>> network improves (and charging speed)and folk start to realise that range
>>>>> isn’t such a big issue then maybe we’ll start to see more saloon cars.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody has “range anxiety” with ICE cars because you can refuel
>>>> anywhere within a matter of minutes. Once that becomes true for EV's
>>>> people's views will change.
>>>
>>> The only snag with that is…
>>>
>>> …charge at home = really cheap
>>>
>>> …charge at a network charger…up to 90p/kWh
>>
>> Indeed, “up to…”.  A Firstbus depot in Glasgow is now open to the public
>> @39p/kWh.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> It’s like paying £13:50 per litre.
>>
>> No it’s not.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>
> The nearest charger to me is 88p/kWh. The next nearest is 86p/kWh. One a
> few miles away was 7p/kWh but has disappeared off the network.
>

I would certainly agree that it’s a big issue for anyone who can’t charge
at home at present.  If the government really want to encourage uptake they
have to find a way of providing lower cost public charging.  I wouldn’t own
an EV without access to home charging.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 2025-07-04 09:13, Andy Burns wrote:
> nib wrote:
>
>> My Zoe is Fiesta-sized (4 metres, B segment) with 240-mile quoted range
>
> Weren't we told that when the WLTP came in (for hydrocarbon and EV cars)
> that consumption and range figures would be realistic?  Seems they're
> basically still lies, and you need to knock 1/3 off ...
>

They are not lies! They are measured under a standard set of conditions,
so you can fairly compare cars.

It depends so much on the driver and the type of journey. My car's rated
at 239 miles IIRC and I can achieve roughly that in normal, gentle,
thoughtful driving on open A roads. Like I can start at 100%, drive from
MK to Bricket Wood on the A5 and a bit of the M1, and home again, a
total of 72 miles and end up with 71% battery remaining, estimated
another 158 miles.

By thoughtful I mean things like anticipating braking to maximise
regeneration, not over-accelerating only to have to brake shortly after,
smooth constant speed (so lane 1 type driving not lane 3).

I'm one of those people who used to achieve the booked MPG from ICE cars
as well! My wife and I could drive the same car on the same journey in
the same time and I would get approx 60 mi/gal against her 50. She just
dumped the extra fuel straight into the brakes.

So not lies, just showing what the car can achieve.

nib

On 04/07/2025 10:40 AM, Tim+ wrote:
> Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>> Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:
>>> Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>>>> Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 03/07/2025 in message
>>>>> <899997949.773270564.451833.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net>
>>>>> Tim+ wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I’m sure that if a Ford Focus or Fiesta sized EV was produced with a 250
>>>>>> mile range was produced it would sell like hotcakes but “range anxiety”
>>>>>> still has a strong influence over buyers decision making. As the charging
>>>>>> network improves (and charging speed)and folk start to realise that range
>>>>>> isn’t such a big issue then maybe we’ll start to see more saloon cars.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nobody has “range anxiety” with ICE cars because you can refuel
>>>>> anywhere within a matter of minutes. Once that becomes true for EV's
>>>>> people's views will change.
>>>>
>>>> The only snag with that is…
>>>>
>>>> …charge at home = really cheap
>>>>
>>>> …charge at a network charger…up to 90p/kWh
>>>
>>> Indeed, “up to…”.  A Firstbus depot in Glasgow is now open to the public
>>> @39p/kWh.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It’s like paying £13:50 per litre.
>>>
>>> No it’s not.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The nearest charger to me is 88p/kWh. The next nearest is 86p/kWh. One a
>> few miles away was 7p/kWh but has disappeared off the network.
>>
>
> I would certainly agree that it’s a big issue for anyone who can’t charge
> at home at present.  If the government really want to encourage uptake they
> have to find a way of providing lower cost public charging.  I wouldn’t own
> an EV without access to home charging.

UK Power Networks (or other regional body) will install a home charging
point for you. Next door are having it done at the moment.

Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
> RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
>> On 4 Jul 2025 at 09:10:25 BST, Spike wrote:
>>
>>> Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>> On 03/07/2025 in message
>>>> <899997949.773270564.451833.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net>
>>>> Tim+ wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I’m sure that if a Ford Focus or Fiesta sized EV was produced with a 250
>>>>> mile range was produced it would sell like hotcakes but “range anxiety”
>>>>> still has a strong influence over buyers decision making. As the charging
>>>>> network improves (and charging speed)and folk start to realise that range
>>>>> isn’t such a big issue then maybe we’ll start to see more saloon cars.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody has “range anxiety” with ICE cars because you can refuel
>>>> anywhere within a matter of minutes. Once that becomes true for EV's
>>>> people's views will change.
>>>
>>> The only snag with that is…
>>>
>>> …charge at home = really cheap
>>>
>>> …charge at a network charger…up to 90p/kWh
>>>
>>> It’s like paying £13:50 per litre of petrol.
>>
>> Gallon?
>
> Charge car at home, say 15p/kWh, get 5miles/kWh =3p/mile.
>
> Petrol car = 9mile/£1:35litre, = 15p/mile
>
> Public charger up to 90p/kWh = 18p/mile
>
> Not as bad as I first thought, but does show the real cost of public
> charging, say 6x that of home charging. Those on EV tariffs will have a
> much greater gain.
>

Raises the question , would it be permissible for those on such a tariff
who don’t need to charge their own vehicle frequently and have suitable
access to allow others to use their charger at a cost to be agreed , higher
than what they pay the supplier but cheaper than an actual public charger.
Probably would break all sorts of T+C but who would know.  Could be a
little earner in some circumstances

GH.

On 04/07/2025 04:08, RJH wrote:


>
> The 52kWh Renault 5 is >250 miles claimed, and quite a few over 200 - Peugeot
> 205/Astra for example. Wouldn't fancy putting that to the test on a winter's
> motorway run, mind.
>

Range simulator for megane-electric
https://www.renault.co.uk/electric-vehicles/megane-electric/range-charge-simulator.html

Gives some idea of range under certain conditions
The default setting is 100% charge which may be appropriate for a long
journey (the charge can be changed).

At an ambient temperature of 20C, eco mode = on, 100% charge
Town driving = 290 miles
Motorway driving = 200 miles

At an ambient temperature of 5C, eco mode = on, 100% charge, heater on
Town driving = 170 miles
Motorway driving = 175 miles (yes more miles than town driving)

They claim 30 minutes on a motorway charger will give 160 miles (rapid
charger 130kW DC, 350A) but with a 11kW charger 4 hours for 160 miles.

They do mention the simulated figures would change based on how the
vehicle is loaded*, weather conditions and driving style.
There is no mention of how low the battery charge has become at those
ranges.

My concern with range and battery usage is that I regularly do 250 mile
journeys and more than once I have been stuck on motorways for 2+ hours
more than my normal journey times. Not a problem in a ICE car with a
full tank giving me 400+ miles but maybe a problem if the delay is when
the battery is getting low.
Playing around it seems the heater in winter takes a fair bit of the
battery in town driving, 280 miles with the heater off, 170 miles with
the heater on. Much less difference for motorway driving as I assume
that that the range is being covered in a much shorter time at 70mph and
therefor the heater is only on for a couple of hours. I wouldn't want to
to be stuck on a motorway crawling along at 10mph with the heater on for
a couple of hours :(

*On holiday recently the driver mentioned how sluggish the car felt with
3 adults, a dog, a boot full of luggage, and a streamlined roof box :)




--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 04/07/2025 09:42, nib wrote:
> I'm one of those people who used to achieve the booked MPG from ICE cars
> as well! My wife and I could drive the same car on the same journey in
> the same time and I would get approx 60 mi/gal against her 50. She just
> dumped the extra fuel straight into the brakes.

Completely true.
I make a regular journey and if I have to brake suddenly it ruins my
economy.

Lift and coast is hugely successful at eking out the fuel.

--
“Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

    -  John K Galbraith

On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 07:36:55 +0000, Jeff Gaines wrote:

> On 03/07/2025 in message
> <899997949.773270564.451833.timdownieuk-
yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net>
> Tim+ wrote:
>
>> [quoted text muted]
>
> Nobody has “range anxiety” with ICE cars because you can refuel anywhere
> within a matter of minutes. Once that becomes true for EV's people's
> views will change.

The last 20 or so Ubers I have used have all been hybrids.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 09:40:39 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

> Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>> [quoted text muted]
> I would certainly agree that it’s a big issue for anyone who can’t
> charge at home at present.  If the government really want to encourage
> uptake they have to find a way of providing lower cost public charging.
> I wouldn’t own an EV without access to home charging.

That won't happen.

When the intersection of autonomous cars meets sky high energy prices
meets EVS, then you'll end up with EVs toddling off to charge when you
are sleeping.

And some genius will say "hey, while it's doing that, it can carry fares".

Especially if you have groups of chums all chipping in to buy an EV with
the sole intention of doing that.

It's quite amazing how much automobiles cost compared to how long they
are used for in a day ...

On 04/07/2025 09:42, nib wrote:
> On 2025-07-04 09:13, Andy Burns wrote:
>> nib wrote:
>>
>>> My Zoe is Fiesta-sized (4 metres, B segment) with 240-mile quoted range
>>
>> Weren't we told that when the WLTP came in (for hydrocarbon and EV
>> cars) that consumption and range figures would be realistic?  Seems
>> they're basically still lies, and you need to knock 1/3 off ...
>>
>
> They are not lies! They are measured under a standard set of conditions,
> so you can fairly compare cars.
>
> It depends so much on the driver and the type of journey. My car's rated
> at 239 miles IIRC and I can achieve roughly that in normal, gentle,
> thoughtful driving on open A roads. Like I can start at 100%, drive from
> MK to Bricket Wood on the A5 and a bit of the M1, and home again, a
> total of 72 miles and end up with 71% battery remaining, estimated
> another 158 miles.
>
> By thoughtful I mean things like anticipating braking to maximise
> regeneration, not over-accelerating only to have to brake shortly after,
> smooth constant speed (so lane 1 type driving not lane 3).
>
> I'm one of those people who used to achieve the booked MPG from ICE cars
> as well! My wife and I could drive the same car on the same journey in
> the same time and I would get approx 60 mi/gal against her 50. She just
> dumped the extra fuel straight into the brakes.
>
> So not lies, just showing what the car can achieve.

Didn't the ICE car manufactures once achieve their mileage figures by
closely controlling the speed of the car, removing excess weight such as
the spare wheel, having driver only and taping up all the cracks in the
body panels to make the exterior more aerodynamic. Hardly real world
driving.

I would argue that your driving style in not the average. Yes it proves
that stated ranges are possible with an ideal driving style, ideal road
conditions, and an ideal ambient temperature. However to you get the
same consistent results in different weather and traffic conditions, for
the same route?

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 03/07/2025 22:31, Tim+ wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I think the numbers above speak for themselves.  Nobody is buying saloons,
>> so there's no point trying to make them in volume.  If even BMW can't sell
>> them in quantity compared with SUVs then Jaguar certainly can't.
>>
>
> When it comes to EVs, I’m not sure if the predominance of SUVs is down to
> buyer preference for a big car or manufacturers trying to meet the needs of
> a people who think that they need a 250 mile range minimum.
>
> Getting that kind of range with current battery tech means a big, heavy
> battery and it’s easier to fit it into an SUV style car than a more
> ordinary sized saloon.

MG4 from 2 years ago has a 281 mile range (more like 200 in the winter,
but can - with care - achieve over 310 in warmer weather).

Battery is under the full floor and it is not an SUV.

On 4 Jul 2025 at 10:28:54 BST, Spike wrote:

> RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
>> On 4 Jul 2025 at 09:10:25 BST, Spike wrote:
>>
>>> Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>> On 03/07/2025 in message
>>>> <899997949.773270564.451833.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net>
>>>> Tim+ wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I’m sure that if a Ford Focus or Fiesta sized EV was produced with a 250
>>>>> mile range was produced it would sell like hotcakes but “range anxiety”
>>>>> still has a strong influence over buyers decision making. As the charging
>>>>> network improves (and charging speed)and folk start to realise that range
>>>>> isn’t such a big issue then maybe we’ll start to see more saloon cars.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody has “range anxiety” with ICE cars because you can refuel
>>>> anywhere within a matter of minutes. Once that becomes true for EV's
>>>> people's views will change.
>>>
>>> The only snag with that is…
>>>
>>> …charge at home = really cheap
>>>
>>> …charge at a network charger…up to 90p/kWh
>>>
>>> It’s like paying £13:50 per litre of petrol.
>>
>> Gallon?
>
> Charge car at home, say 15p/kWh, get 5miles/kWh =3p/mile.
>

I'd work on 4 miles/kWh - even for a smallish EV. My supplier does overnight
charging at 6p/kWh. So call it 2p/mile.

> Petrol car = 9mile/£1:35litre, = 15p/mile
>

OK. My diesel Berlingo does about 55mpg, 11p/mile.

> Public charger up to 90p/kWh = 18p/mile
>
> Not as bad as I first thought, but does show the real cost of public
> charging, say 6x that of home charging. Those on EV tariffs will have a
> much greater gain.

Trying to get my head round it all at the moment. City driving it's an EV win
on just about every level. Including emissions - I'm very reluctant to do
trips under 10 miles for that reason alone. Which means I'm often engaged in
convoluted workarounds and trip combining.

One thing I've not factored in is the EV charge point. I could manage on the
slow charger, but would prefer a dedicated (say) 7kWh point for the lower
tariff/faster charging. Say £500?

What it sort of comes down to is how achievable the few long trips I do each
year are. I'd just have to take the hit on charging costs. And that'd be
easily offset by savings from home charging. It's more to do with the
logistics of charging than cost - time spent fueling, and finding a charger
that works. My sister came to visit the other week. Her Cupra has a 260
advertised mile range. She made the 150 mile journey with an indicated 17
miles remaining. Tense.

Anyways, a lot of this comes down to individual priorities and use patterns.

--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

On 04/07/2025 10:46, JNugent wrote:

> UK Power Networks (or other regional body) will install a home charging
> point for you. Next door are having it done at the moment.

OK if you have your own off road parking

Where I live there are areas (square miles) where it's all on street
parking both sides of narrow roads in front of properties where there is
no space for an off street parking bay.  More than half the housing
stock in the UK was built before mass car ownership was considered to be
possible.

Just watch a 1950s Britsh B movie shown of Talking Picture TV channel to
see how few cars were parked in a typical urban street.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 04/07/2025 10:28, Spike wrote:
> RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
>> On 4 Jul 2025 at 09:10:25 BST, Spike wrote:
>>
>>> Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>> On 03/07/2025 in message
>>>> <899997949.773270564.451833.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net>
>>>> Tim+ wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I’m sure that if a Ford Focus or Fiesta sized EV was produced with a 250
>>>>> mile range was produced it would sell like hotcakes but “range anxiety”
>>>>> still has a strong influence over buyers decision making. As the charging
>>>>> network improves (and charging speed)and folk start to realise that range
>>>>> isn’t such a big issue then maybe we’ll start to see more saloon cars.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody has “range anxiety” with ICE cars because you can refuel
>>>> anywhere within a matter of minutes. Once that becomes true for EV's
>>>> people's views will change.
>>>
>>> The only snag with that is…
>>>
>>> …charge at home = really cheap
>>>
>>> …charge at a network charger…up to 90p/kWh
>>>
>>> It’s like paying £13:50 per litre of petrol.
>>
>> Gallon?
>
> Charge car at home, say 15p/kWh, get 5miles/kWh =3p/mile.
>
> Petrol car = 9mile/£1:35litre, = 15p/mile
>
> Public charger up to 90p/kWh = 18p/mile
>
> Not as bad as I first thought, but does show the real cost of public
> charging, say 6x that of home charging. Those on EV tariffs will have a
> much greater gain.

Home charging is more normally 7p per kWh and is the norm for almost all
charging, with public (ultra fast) charging varying as low as 65p, but
more commonly 75p,

Additionally, on some tariffs, the 7p per kWh applies for 5 to 6 hours a
night, to the whole house and applies for periods in the day too, if
demand is low and your supplier chooses to charge your car during those
periods.

I've done average mileage, including some reasonably lengthy ones and
only charged on public chargers twice - once because I wanted extra
charge, so I could travel fast on the way home and wasn't sure I'd quite
make it otherwise (but that was around 45p per kWh on a 7kW charger,
while I attended a 3.5 hour event) and once when I had an unexpected
work trip in the morning and wanted to go to another county in the
afternoon to a specialist shop, without waiting hours at home to add charge.

At the moment, I'd not go full EV without having a second car in the
household ... for those emergency, unplanned, long journeys (we've had a
number of those as family in Ireland have fallen ill or died) or for
holidays, where I'd not want to travel some distance and then hang
around charging, every day or two.

On 2025-07-04 11:42, alan_m wrote:
> On 04/07/2025 10:46, JNugent wrote:
>
>> UK Power Networks (or other regional body) will install a home
>> charging point for you. Next door are having it done at the moment.
>
> OK if you have your own off road parking
>
> Where I live there are areas (square miles) where it's all on street
> parking both sides of narrow roads in front of properties where there is
> no space for an off street parking bay.  More than half the housing
> stock in the UK was built before mass car ownership was considered to be
> possible.
>
> Just watch a 1950s Britsh B movie shown of Talking Picture TV channel to
> see how few cars were parked in a typical urban street.
>
>

I see the council in the area adjacent to me (Central Beds) have an
offer on a system for charging on the road: "Kerbo Charge", an approved
channel across the footpath. They are offering a discount for early
adopters but it's still eye-wateringly expensive!

nib

On 2025-07-04 11:28, alan_m wrote:
> On 04/07/2025 09:42, nib wrote:
>> On 2025-07-04 09:13, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> nib wrote:
>>>
>>>> My Zoe is Fiesta-sized (4 metres, B segment) with 240-mile quoted range
>>>
>>> Weren't we told that when the WLTP came in (for hydrocarbon and EV
>>> cars) that consumption and range figures would be realistic?  Seems
>>> they're basically still lies, and you need to knock 1/3 off ...
>>>
>>
>> They are not lies! They are measured under a standard set of
>> conditions, so you can fairly compare cars.
>>
>> It depends so much on the driver and the type of journey. My car's
>> rated at 239 miles IIRC and I can achieve roughly that in normal,
>> gentle, thoughtful driving on open A roads. Like I can start at 100%,
>> drive from MK to Bricket Wood on the A5 and a bit of the M1, and home
>> again, a total of 72 miles and end up with 71% battery remaining,
>> estimated another 158 miles.
>>
>> By thoughtful I mean things like anticipating braking to maximise
>> regeneration, not over-accelerating only to have to brake shortly
>> after, smooth constant speed (so lane 1 type driving not lane 3).
>>
>> I'm one of those people who used to achieve the booked MPG from ICE
>> cars as well! My wife and I could drive the same car on the same
>> journey in the same time and I would get approx 60 mi/gal against her
>> 50. She just dumped the extra fuel straight into the brakes.
>>
>> So not lies, just showing what the car can achieve.
>
> Didn't the ICE car manufactures once achieve their mileage figures by
> closely controlling the speed of the car, removing excess weight such as
> the spare wheel, having driver only and taping up all the cracks in the
> body panels to make the exterior more aerodynamic. Hardly real world
> driving.
>
> I would argue that your driving style in not the average. Yes it proves
> that stated ranges are possible with an ideal driving style, ideal road
> conditions, and an ideal ambient temperature. However to you get the
> same consistent results in different weather and traffic conditions, for
> the same route?
>

No it varies. When I was working and doing the same 60 miles per day, I
was taking between 25% and 35% battery usage, with the 25% being the
best in summer and the other the worst in winter (around freezing and
traffic congestion).

(I like to have plenty of reserve - I only bought an EV when my work
journey was going to be <50% of the battery - and also there were
chargers at work if it was ever necessary.)

nib

nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in
news:mcprcbFbnj9U1@mid.individual.net:

> On 2025-07-04 11:42, alan_m wrote:
>> On 04/07/2025 10:46, JNugent wrote:
>>
>>> UK Power Networks (or other regional body) will install a home
>>> charging point for you. Next door are having it done at the moment.
>>
>> OK if you have your own off road parking
>>
>> Where I live there are areas (square miles) where it's all on street
>> parking both sides of narrow roads in front of properties where there
>> is no space for an off street parking bay.  More than half the
>> housing stock in the UK was built before mass car ownership was
>> considered to be possible.
>>
>> Just watch a 1950s Britsh B movie shown of Talking Picture TV channel
>> to see how few cars were parked in a typical urban street.
>>
>>
>
> I see the council in the area adjacent to me (Central Beds) have an
> offer on a system for charging on the road: "Kerbo Charge", an
> approved channel across the footpath. They are offering a discount for
> early adopters but it's still eye-wateringly expensive!
>

Providing a reserved parking space for the subscriber? That should make for
a fun enforcement situation.

On 04/07/2025 11:28, alan_m wrote:
> I would argue that your driving style in not the average. Yes it proves
> that stated ranges are possible with an ideal driving style, ideal road
> conditions, and an ideal ambient temperature. However to you get the
> same consistent results in different weather and traffic conditions, for
> the same route?

My XF is supposed to do 42mpg at 100Kmh

In reality on a long run, I can see 40mpg  anyway. So long as I dont
stop or touch the brakes

In reality I am happy to get 35mpg and its usually nearer 32mpg.

In town, 28 mpg is optimistic. In a traffic jam, make that 5mpg

You need to understand what burns fuel  and avoid it.

--
“Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

    -  John K Galbraith

On 04/07/2025 12:14, nib wrote:
> On 2025-07-04 11:42, alan_m wrote:
>> On 04/07/2025 10:46, JNugent wrote:
>>
>>> UK Power Networks (or other regional body) will install a home
>>> charging point for you. Next door are having it done at the moment.
>>
>> OK if you have your own off road parking
>>
>> Where I live there are areas (square miles) where it's all on street
>> parking both sides of narrow roads in front of properties where there
>> is no space for an off street parking bay.  More than half the housing
>> stock in the UK was built before mass car ownership was considered to
>> be possible.
>>
>> Just watch a 1950s Britsh B movie shown of Talking Picture TV channel
>> to see how few cars were parked in a typical urban street.
>>
>>
>
> I see the council in the area adjacent to me (Central Beds) have an
> offer on a system for charging on the road: "Kerbo Charge", an approved
> channel across the footpath. They are offering a discount for early
> adopters but it's still eye-wateringly expensive!
>
> nib

That assumes you have a dedicated parking space on the public road. Even
in a residents only zone it's still first come first served with regards
parking spaces - zero guarantee that you can park outside of your own house.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 04/07/2025 12:16, Jethro_uk wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 09:40:39 +0000, Tim+ wrote:
>
>> Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>>> [quoted text muted]
>> I would certainly agree that it’s a big issue for anyone who can’t
>> charge at home at present.  If the government really want to encourage
>> uptake they have to find a way of providing lower cost public charging.
>> I wouldn’t own an EV without access to home charging.
>
> That won't happen.
>
> When the intersection of autonomous cars meets sky high energy prices
> meets EVS, then you'll end up with EVs toddling off to charge when you
> are sleeping.
>
> And some genius will say "hey, while it's doing that, it can carry fares".
>
> Especially if you have groups of chums all chipping in to buy an EV with
> the sole intention of doing that.
>
> It's quite amazing how much automobiles cost compared to how long they
> are used for in a day ...

I wonder how an autonomous taxi knows the someone has thrown up in the
back of the vehicle?


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 13:44:12 +0100, alan_m wrote:

> On 04/07/2025 12:16, Jethro_uk wrote:
>> On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 09:40:39 +0000, Tim+ wrote:
>>
>>> Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>>>> [quoted text muted]
>>> I would certainly agree that it’s a big issue for anyone who can’t
>>> charge at home at present.  If the government really want to encourage
>>> uptake they have to find a way of providing lower cost public
>>> charging.
>>> I wouldn’t own an EV without access to home charging.
>>
>> That won't happen.
>>
>> When the intersection of autonomous cars meets sky high energy prices
>> meets EVS, then you'll end up with EVs toddling off to charge when you
>> are sleeping.
>>
>> And some genius will say "hey, while it's doing that, it can carry
>> fares".
>>
>> Especially if you have groups of chums all chipping in to buy an EV
>> with the sole intention of doing that.
>>
>> It's quite amazing how much automobiles cost compared to how long they
>> are used for in a day ...
>
> I wonder how an autonomous taxi knows the someone has thrown up in the
> back of the vehicle?

Oh, if a billionaire has to make money out of it, they'll find a way.
Maybe call it a terrorist offence.

On 04/07/2025 13:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 04/07/2025 11:28, alan_m wrote:
>> I would argue that your driving style in not the average. Yes it
>> proves that stated ranges are possible with an ideal driving style,
>> ideal road conditions, and an ideal ambient temperature. However to
>> you get the same consistent results in different weather and traffic
>> conditions, for the same route?
>
> My XF is supposed to do 42mpg at 100Kmh
>
> In reality on a long run, I can see 40mpg  anyway. So long as I dont
> stop or touch the brakes
>
> In reality I am happy to get 35mpg and its usually nearer 32mpg.
>
> In town, 28 mpg is optimistic. In a traffic jam, make that 5mpg
>
> You need to understand what burns fuel  and avoid it.
>

Sometimes it's other road users.

I often travel long winding rural roads at the nation speed limit with
little reason to touch the brakes or to change gear BUT only if the road
is clear or I'm following locals. Get someone who doesn't know the road
and it's random braking from them at every slight deviation from then
straight or even random breaking when the road ahead can be seen to be
clear. Even driving further back than normal it's gear changes when they
drive too slow.

It's much the same when following someone up a hill. A bit of constant
foot on the accelerator on approach and during the climb would get me to
the top of the hill at the same speed as at the bottom. You get the
driver ahead that will be half the speed at the top which forces drivers
behind to adjust their normal driving habits and change down a gear or two.

I often see constant brake lights for distances of miles from cars ahead
when descending reasonably steep hills.

I guess most of us would be more cautious on roads we don't know and
possibly not get the same mileage or range as when driving on more
familiar roads. I tend to glance more at my sat nav screen when driving
in an unfamiliar area just to gauge which way the road ahead may be
changing direction.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 2025-07-04 13:33, fred wrote:
> nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in
> news:mcprcbFbnj9U1@mid.individual.net:
>
>> On 2025-07-04 11:42, alan_m wrote:
>>> On 04/07/2025 10:46, JNugent wrote:
>>>
>>>> UK Power Networks (or other regional body) will install a home
>>>> charging point for you. Next door are having it done at the moment.
>>>
>>> OK if you have your own off road parking
>>>
>>> Where I live there are areas (square miles) where it's all on street
>>> parking both sides of narrow roads in front of properties where there
>>> is no space for an off street parking bay.  More than half the
>>> housing stock in the UK was built before mass car ownership was
>>> considered to be possible.
>>>
>>> Just watch a 1950s Britsh B movie shown of Talking Picture TV channel
>>> to see how few cars were parked in a typical urban street.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I see the council in the area adjacent to me (Central Beds) have an
>> offer on a system for charging on the road: "Kerbo Charge", an
>> approved channel across the footpath. They are offering a discount for
>> early adopters but it's still eye-wateringly expensive!
>>
>
> Providing a reserved parking space for the subscriber? That should make for
> a fun enforcement situation.

Yes, like most of the ideas being tried for those without off-road
parking, it assumes that neighbours get on to some extent.

It's very rare that someone not visiting me parks outside my house, but
I also have off-road parking. And the strip of highway between my
property and the road is actually laid to lawn which I look after so I
could drape across it if necessary.

The row of 7kW chargers near me works by being free-for-all parking
during the day for a school, a health centre and a pharmacy, but
overnight and at weekends it's used by locals charging.

nib

On 04/07/2025 14:37, Paul wrote:

>
> You would put a roof box on a Cybertruck.

It may be BS but I saw something the other day indicating the Cybertruck
may no longer be legal on USA roads, or at least not legal on the roads
in some states.

 From memory some loophole allowed the design to be exempt from some
regulatory requirements including perhaps pedestrian safety in the event
of an accident etc. The loopholes only apply to a limited number of
prototype cars, usually aimed at one off custom cars etc.
The reason that the regulations now apply is because the Cybertruck
isn't the prototype and it isn't a limited production.

The Cybertruck would be illegal for road use in the UK and EU because it
fails to meet many safety standards

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Jeff Gaines wrote:

>Nobody has “range anxiety” with ICE cars because you can refuel
>anywhere within a matter of minutes. Once that becomes true for EV's
>people's views will change.

Indeed. On a recent journey we had some difficulty in finding a
working town centre charge point at our destination, despite
downloading even more Apps than we already had. We eventually
called at a motorway services, which had its own problems.

I contacted them later:

"Arriving last Saturday teatime, in heavy rain, we were initially
delighted to see an impressive array of EV chargers, most of them
available.

Our initial task was to spot a CHAdeMO charger. We were not able,
from inside the car, to identify this. We therefore had to pull
into a space. It became clear that, only by prodding each of the
enormous touchscreens, was the type of socket identified. Having
worked our way along the line, we finally found the single
CHAdeMO on site.

However, the screen showed "Unavailable". We tried various
combinations of unplugging, waving cards and muttering
incantations, to no avail. Thinking it might be a software glitch
that could be remotely reset, more in hope than expectation, we
rang the helpline.

They were able to tell us that the equipment was working as
designed, because only one output at a time is available on that
pillar, and the CCS was in use. Helpfully, they were able to tell
us that the car using the CCS output was nearly fully charged,
and after a short wait we were able to connect.

I accept that CHAdeMO is now not the favoured connector, but I
believe that things could be arranged better.

It ought to be possible to identify the type of connector(s) on
each pillar from within a vehicle, before pulling into a space. I
guess the operator prefers to use their enormous screen to
achieve their chosen look. Indication of the connector type could
easily be shown here instead. Alternatively, separate signage
could be affixed.

The fact that, only on this particular pillar, the two outputs
are not available simultaneously, should be made plain.
"Unavailable" has a number of potential interpretations. Sadly,
the number of charge points nationwide having technical problems
is significant. We were on the verge of heading to another
location.

A CCS user entering the charging area arrives first at the shared
pillar. There is no indication to them that, by using it, instead
of any of the many other pillars, they are inadvertently blocking
use of the only CHAdeMO connector.

I have no idea if the single output limitation would also apply
if both were CHAdeMO, but even if so, this might be an
improvement, as it would stop CCS users blocking CHAdeMO.

I salute your efforts to support the growing community of EV
users, and, I feel sure you would want to address this problem
area."

They replied sympathetically, and promised to pass the comments
on to their contractor. Things need to get a lot better.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon  Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk  @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

Chris J Dixon wrote:

> I accept that CHAdeMO is now not the favoured connector

I've seen CCS to Chademo adapters, but they look comically huge, and
expensive.

On 2025-07-04 16:15, Chris J Dixon wrote:
> Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
>> Nobody has “range anxiety” with ICE cars because you can refuel
>> anywhere within a matter of minutes. Once that becomes true for EV's
>> people's views will change.
>
> Indeed. On a recent journey we had some difficulty in finding a
> working town centre charge point at our destination, despite
> downloading even more Apps than we already had. We eventually
> called at a motorway services, which had its own problems.
>
> I contacted them later:
>
> "Arriving last Saturday teatime, in heavy rain, we were initially
> delighted to see an impressive array of EV chargers, most of them
> available.
>
> Our initial task was to spot a CHAdeMO charger. We were not able,
> from inside the car, to identify this. We therefore had to pull
> into a space. It became clear that, only by prodding each of the
> enormous touchscreens, was the type of socket identified. Having
> worked our way along the line, we finally found the single
> CHAdeMO on site.
>
> However, the screen showed "Unavailable". We tried various
> combinations of unplugging, waving cards and muttering
> incantations, to no avail. Thinking it might be a software glitch
> that could be remotely reset, more in hope than expectation, we
> rang the helpline.
>
> They were able to tell us that the equipment was working as
> designed, because only one output at a time is available on that
> pillar, and the CCS was in use. Helpfully, they were able to tell
> us that the car using the CCS output was nearly fully charged,
> and after a short wait we were able to connect.
>
> I accept that CHAdeMO is now not the favoured connector, but I
> believe that things could be arranged better.
>
> It ought to be possible to identify the type of connector(s) on
> each pillar from within a vehicle, before pulling into a space. I
> guess the operator prefers to use their enormous screen to
> achieve their chosen look. Indication of the connector type could
> easily be shown here instead. Alternatively, separate signage
> could be affixed.
>
> The fact that, only on this particular pillar, the two outputs
> are not available simultaneously, should be made plain.
> "Unavailable" has a number of potential interpretations. Sadly,
> the number of charge points nationwide having technical problems
> is significant. We were on the verge of heading to another
> location.
>
> A CCS user entering the charging area arrives first at the shared
> pillar. There is no indication to them that, by using it, instead
> of any of the many other pillars, they are inadvertently blocking
> use of the only CHAdeMO connector.
>
> I have no idea if the single output limitation would also apply
> if both were CHAdeMO, but even if so, this might be an
> improvement, as it would stop CCS users blocking CHAdeMO.
>
> I salute your efforts to support the growing community of EV
> users, and, I feel sure you would want to address this problem
> area."
>
> They replied sympathetically, and promised to pass the comments
> on to their contractor. Things need to get a lot better.
>
> Chris

Similar with me, A few years ago when I bought the Zoe it was not
obvious (at least not to me!) that 22kW AC charging was not going to
grow much at all, while CCS is popping up everywhere. It hasn't bothered
me till now as my use was all charging at home or work and we had (and I
still have) the "proper" car for holidays.

My next EV, assuming they ever get round to making it, has CCS and >50kW
and I'll be down to just one car.

nib

On 04/07/2025 12:14 PM, nib wrote:

> On 2025-07-04 11:42, alan_m wrote:
>> On 04/07/2025 10:46, JNugent wrote:
>
>>> UK Power Networks (or other regional body) will install a home
>>> charging point for you. Next door are having it done at the moment.
>
>> OK if you have your own off road parking

Well, yes.
>
>> Where I live there are areas (square miles) where it's all on street
>> parking both sides of narrow roads in front of properties where there
>> is no space for an off street parking bay.  More than half the housing
>> stock in the UK was built before mass car ownership was considered to
>> be possible.

Yes, but anyone comtemplating having a home charging point must have
off-street space adjacent to their home, surely?

The question otherwise doesn't arise.
>
>> Just watch a 1950s Britsh B movie shown of Talking Picture TV channel
>> to see how few cars were parked in a typical urban street.

I was brought up in such locations.
>
> I see the council in the area adjacent to me (Central Beds) have an
> offer on a system for charging on the road: "Kerbo Charge", an approved
> channel across the footpath. They are offering a discount for early
> adopters but it's still eye-wateringly expensive!

What sort of price?

But what if someone else parks in that spot (as they are surely entitled
to do)?

On 04/07/2025 12:16 PM, Jethro_uk wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 09:40:39 +0000, Tim+ wrote:
>
>> Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>>> [quoted text muted]
>> I would certainly agree that it’s a big issue for anyone who can’t
>> charge at home at present.  If the government really want to encourage
>> uptake they have to find a way of providing lower cost public charging.
>> I wouldn’t own an EV without access to home charging.
>
> That won't happen.
>
> When the intersection of autonomous cars meets sky high energy prices
> meets EVS, then you'll end up with EVs toddling off to charge when you
> are sleeping.
>
> And some genius will say "hey, while it's doing that, it can carry fares".
>
> Especially if you have groups of chums all chipping in to buy an EV with
> the sole intention of doing that.
>
> It's quite amazing how much automobiles cost compared to how long they
> are used for in a day ...

And it's all good fun until the car comes home with the interior all
contaminated with puke.

On 04/07/2025 02:51 PM, nib wrote:
> On 2025-07-04 13:33, fred wrote:
>> nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in
>> news:mcprcbFbnj9U1@mid.individual.net:
>>
>>> On 2025-07-04 11:42, alan_m wrote:
>>>> On 04/07/2025 10:46, JNugent wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> UK Power Networks (or other regional body) will install a home
>>>>> charging point for you. Next door are having it done at the moment.
>>>>
>>>> OK if you have your own off road parking
>>>>
>>>> Where I live there are areas (square miles) where it's all on street
>>>> parking both sides of narrow roads in front of properties where there
>>>> is no space for an off street parking bay.  More than half the
>>>> housing stock in the UK was built before mass car ownership was
>>>> considered to be possible.
>>>>
>>>> Just watch a 1950s Britsh B movie shown of Talking Picture TV channel
>>>> to see how few cars were parked in a typical urban street.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I see the council in the area adjacent to me (Central Beds) have an
>>> offer on a system for charging on the road: "Kerbo Charge", an
>>> approved channel across the footpath. They are offering a discount for
>>> early adopters but it's still eye-wateringly expensive!
>>>
>>
>> Providing a reserved parking space for the subscriber? That should
>> make for
>> a fun enforcement situation.
>
> Yes, like most of the ideas being tried for those without off-road
> parking, it assumes that neighbours get on to some extent.

Competition for on-street parking space is one issue guaranteed to work
against that!
>
> It's very rare that someone not visiting me parks outside my house, but
> I also have off-road parking. And the strip of highway between my
> property and the road is actually laid to lawn which I look after so I
> could drape across it if necessary.
>
> The row of 7kW chargers near me works by being free-for-all parking
> during the day for a school, a health centre and a pharmacy, but
> overnight and at weekends it's used by locals charging.

It doesn't sound optimum.

On 04/07/2025 04:15 PM, Chris J Dixon wrote:
> Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
>> Nobody has “range anxiety” with ICE cars because you can refuel
>> anywhere within a matter of minutes. Once that becomes true for EV's
>> people's views will change.
>
> Indeed. On a recent journey we had some difficulty in finding a
> working town centre charge point at our destination, despite
> downloading even more Apps than we already had. We eventually
> called at a motorway services, which had its own problems.
>
> I contacted them later:
>
> "Arriving last Saturday teatime, in heavy rain, we were initially
> delighted to see an impressive array of EV chargers, most of them
> available.
>
> Our initial task was to spot a CHAdeMO charger. We were not able,
> from inside the car, to identify this. We therefore had to pull
> into a space. It became clear that, only by prodding each of the
> enormous touchscreens, was the type of socket identified. Having
> worked our way along the line, we finally found the single
> CHAdeMO on site.
>
> However, the screen showed "Unavailable". We tried various
> combinations of unplugging, waving cards and muttering
> incantations, to no avail. Thinking it might be a software glitch
> that could be remotely reset, more in hope than expectation, we
> rang the helpline.
>
> They were able to tell us that the equipment was working as
> designed, because only one output at a time is available on that
> pillar, and the CCS was in use. Helpfully, they were able to tell
> us that the car using the CCS output was nearly fully charged,
> and after a short wait we were able to connect.

And there you have it...
>
> I accept that CHAdeMO is now not the favoured connector, but I
> believe that things could be arranged better.
>
> It ought to be possible to identify the type of connector(s) on
> each pillar from within a vehicle, before pulling into a space. I
> guess the operator prefers to use their enormous screen to
> achieve their chosen look. Indication of the connector type could
> easily be shown here instead. Alternatively, separate signage
> could be affixed.
>
> The fact that, only on this particular pillar, the two outputs
> are not available simultaneously, should be made plain.
> "Unavailable" has a number of potential interpretations. Sadly,
> the number of charge points nationwide having technical problems
> is significant. We were on the verge of heading to another
> location.
>
> A CCS user entering the charging area arrives first at the shared
> pillar. There is no indication to them that, by using it, instead
> of any of the many other pillars, they are inadvertently blocking
> use of the only CHAdeMO connector.
>
> I have no idea if the single output limitation would also apply
> if both were CHAdeMO, but even if so, this might be an
> improvement, as it would stop CCS users blocking CHAdeMO.
>
> I salute your efforts to support the growing community of EV
> users, and, I feel sure you would want to address this problem
> area."
>
> They replied sympathetically, and promised to pass the comments
> on to their contractor. Things need to get a lot better.
>
> Chris
>