🚀 go-pugleaf

On Thu, 24 Apr 2025 10:53:04 -0000 (UTC), wessie
<willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:

>https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2025/april/kawasaki-hydrogen-concept/
>
>Supercharged hydrogen-powered Kawasaki H2 concept completes demo lap of Le
>Mans 24 Hours course

I'm glad to see someone [1] doing this work, but it's not going to be
practical until they solve the energy density / volume problem of
hydrogen.  When that prototype was in the media last year, I think it
had a range of about 50 miles, despite 2 huge panniers as fuel tanks.

I assume hydrogen can be compressed significantly, but I don't know
what the physics constraints are on using compressed hydrogen in this
application.

[1] and especially Kawasaki, given my historic brand loyalty
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2025 10:53:04 -0000 (UTC), wessie
> <willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:
>
>>https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2025/april/kawasaki-hydrogen-concept/
>>
>>Supercharged hydrogen-powered Kawasaki H2 concept completes demo lap of Le
>>Mans 24 Hours course
>
> I'm glad to see someone [1] doing this work, but it's not going to be
> practical until they solve the energy density / volume problem of
> hydrogen.  When that prototype was in the media last year, I think it
> had a range of about 50 miles, despite 2 huge panniers as fuel tanks.
>
> I assume hydrogen can be compressed significantly, but I don't know
> what the physics constraints are on using compressed hydrogen in this
> application.
>
> [1] and especially Kawasaki, given my historic brand loyalty

IIRC the working pressure for gaseous hydrogen storage vessels on
vehicles is in the range of 350 to 700 bar (5000 to 10000 psi).
So it's already being stored at a fairly high pressure and raising
it any further would require more expensive technology and possibly
raising a catastrophic risk in case of a crash.

Some alternative hydrogne storage options (metal hydrides, etc.) exist,
all have their own pluses and minuses. The bottom line is, it's REALLY
hard to beat gasoline as an energy storage medium.

On Thu, 24 Apr 2025 16:43:44 +0000, Mark Olson wrote:

> Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Apr 2025 10:53:04 -0000 (UTC), wessie
>> <willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:
>>
>>>https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2025/april/kawasaki-hydrogen-concept/
>>>
>>>Supercharged hydrogen-powered Kawasaki H2 concept completes demo lap of
>>> Le
>>>Mans 24 Hours course
>>
>> I'm glad to see someone [1] doing this work, but it's not going to be
>> practical until they solve the energy density / volume problem of
>> hydrogen.  When that prototype was in the media last year, I think it
>> had a range of about 50 miles, despite 2 huge panniers as fuel tanks.
>>
>> I assume hydrogen can be compressed significantly, but I don't know
>> what the physics constraints are on using compressed hydrogen in this
>> application.
>>
>> [1] and especially Kawasaki, given my historic brand loyalty
>
> IIRC the working pressure for gaseous hydrogen storage vessels on
> vehicles is in the range of 350 to 700 bar (5000 to 10000 psi).
> So it's already being stored at a fairly high pressure and raising
> it any further would require more expensive technology and possibly
> raising a catastrophic risk in case of a crash.
>
> Some alternative hydrogne storage options (metal hydrides, etc.) exist,
> all have their own pluses and minuses. The bottom line is, it's REALLY
> hard to beat gasoline as an energy storage medium.


I've a view on hydrogen in general (used with a fuel cell to drive an
electric vehicle it's inefficient[1] and used in a combustion engine
it's both inefficient and pointless[2]).  For large vehicles (trucks,
quarry vehicles etc.) then maybe the speed of 'recharging' makes it
work.  I'm suspicious of the motivations of the 'people' behind hydrogen
just doing it to encourage the 'hydrogen is the future, so I won't buy a
BeV this time'types to extend the life of the ICE engine/oil industry;
I'm looking at you Rowan fucking Atkinson.

For cars, I think we'll see improvements in batteries and the BeV is
pretty much where we are; but I run a Leaf and an old Subaru (but only
really use the Leaf).

Motorcycles... well, it's hard to hide a large heavy battery.  I *like*
riding my Zero[3] (an S model, not as much as I liked riding the FXE
that was stolen) but it's just a toy for short journeys.  Until I can
get a 200 mile range and a charging time of less than 30 minutes I'll
stick with my ICE bikes; no way can any electric motorcycle satisfy my
'demand'.


[1] Electricity used to produce hydrogen which then needs to be
transported to point of delivery to vehicle (fair amount of losses I
understand) and then needs to be converted in vehicle back to
electricity to turn the wheels.

[2] Inefficient due to system losses, produces some undesirable
combustion products (I've read) and ultimately if I have many of the
problems of ICE... why not stick with ICE?

[3] Just wish it was a European product...

PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote in news:m6viqgFd28cU1@mid.individual.net:

> On 24/04/2025 18:54, furmity wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Apr 2025 16:43:44 +0000, Mark Olson wrote:
>>
>> [1] Electricity used to produce hydrogen which then needs to be
>> transported to point of delivery to vehicle (fair amount of losses I
>> understand) and then needs to be converted in vehicle back to
>> electricity to turn the wheels.
>
> Yes, though there's no reason in theory why a service station couldn't
> generate and store H2 locally, running continuously off the mains. Or
> even a small unit outside at home instead of a BEV charger, perhaps. I'm
> sure there would be a plethora of efficiency and safety issues to work
> through though.
>

in theory but the economics are not there

industrial hydrogen is made from ammonia, which in turn is made from
methane using lots of energy. Not very green.

electrolyis is only viable if you can use off peak electricity such as wind
power or hydro, as the hydrogen gives you an alternative to batteries to
store energy. In hotter countries, they could use solar to electrolyse
water and I beleieve this is happening in the Arab world, where they are
already using solar to desalinate sea water so not much of a leap to make
hydrogen.

On 24/04/2025 18:54, furmity wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2025 16:43:44 +0000, Mark Olson wrote:
>
> [1] Electricity used to produce hydrogen which then needs to be
> transported to point of delivery to vehicle (fair amount of losses I
> understand) and then needs to be converted in vehicle back to
> electricity to turn the wheels.

Yes, though there's no reason in theory why a service station couldn't
generate and store H2 locally, running continuously off the mains. Or
even a small unit outside at home instead of a BEV charger, perhaps. I'm
sure there would be a plethora of efficiency and safety issues to work
through though.

--

CHUMP #1 (CHarge Up Muppet)

Pip

In article <vudpo0$1v0rp$1@dont-email.me>, Mark Olson says...

>  possibly raising a catastrophic risk in case of a crash.

Safety nazi!

:D

On 24/04/2025 17:43, Mark Olson wrote:
> Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Apr 2025 10:53:04 -0000 (UTC), wessie
>> <willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2025/april/kawasaki-hydrogen-concept/
>>>
>>> Supercharged hydrogen-powered Kawasaki H2 concept completes demo lap of Le
>>> Mans 24 Hours course
>>
>> I'm glad to see someone [1] doing this work, but it's not going to be
>> practical until they solve the energy density / volume problem of
>> hydrogen.  When that prototype was in the media last year, I think it
>> had a range of about 50 miles, despite 2 huge panniers as fuel tanks.
>>
>> I assume hydrogen can be compressed significantly, but I don't know
>> what the physics constraints are on using compressed hydrogen in this
>> application.
>>
>> [1] and especially Kawasaki, given my historic brand loyalty
>
> IIRC the working pressure for gaseous hydrogen storage vessels on
> vehicles is in the range of 350 to 700 bar (5000 to 10000 psi).
> So it's already being stored at a fairly high pressure and raising
> it any further would require more expensive technology and possibly
> raising a catastrophic risk in case of a crash.
>
> Some alternative hydrogne storage options (metal hydrides, etc.) exist,
> all have their own pluses and minuses. The bottom line is, it's REALLY
> hard to beat gasoline as an energy storage medium.
>
Research is being done on strange metal-polymer sponges that can hold H2
and store it at about 3 bar. If this gets off the ground it could solve
a lot of the H2 issues.

On Tue, 29 Apr 2025 17:50:52 +0100, Tim <nobody@home.co.uk> wrote:


>> IIRC the working pressure for gaseous hydrogen storage vessels on
>> vehicles is in the range of 350 to 700 bar (5000 to 10000 psi).
>> So it's already being stored at a fairly high pressure and raising
>> it any further would require more expensive technology and possibly
>> raising a catastrophic risk in case of a crash.
>>
>> Some alternative hydrogne storage options (metal hydrides, etc.) exist,
>> all have their own pluses and minuses. The bottom line is, it's REALLY
>> hard to beat gasoline as an energy storage medium.

>Research is being done on strange metal-polymer sponges that can hold H2
>and store it at about 3 bar. If this gets off the ground it could solve
>a lot of the H2 issues.

Did you mean 3k bar?
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 10:40:22 +0100, Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:

>On Tue, 29 Apr 2025 17:50:52 +0100, Tim <nobody@home.co.uk> wrote:

>>Research is being done on strange metal-polymer sponges that can hold H2
>>and store it at about 3 bar. If this gets off the ground it could solve
>>a lot of the H2 issues.

>Did you mean 3k bar?

Anyway, this paper from Nov 2023 suggests the technology isn't yet
viable for passenger cars, let alone motorcycles
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 30/04/2025 12:08, Champ wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 10:40:22 +0100, Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 29 Apr 2025 17:50:52 +0100, Tim <nobody@home.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> Research is being done on strange metal-polymer sponges that can hold H2
>>> and store it at about 3 bar. If this gets off the ground it could solve
>>> a lot of the H2 issues.
>
>> Did you mean 3k bar?
>
> Anyway, this paper from Nov 2023 suggests the technology isn't yet
> viable for passenger cars, let alone motorcycles

Which paper?


--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 30/04/2025 21:53, YTC#1 wrote:
> On 30/04/2025 12:08, Champ wrote:
>> On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 10:40:22 +0100, Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 29 Apr 2025 17:50:52 +0100, Tim <nobody@home.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>> Research is being done on strange metal-polymer sponges that can
>>>> hold H2
>>>> and store it at about 3 bar. If this gets off the ground it could solve
>>>> a lot of the H2 issues.
>>
>>> Did you mean 3k bar?
>>
>> Anyway, this paper from Nov 2023 suggests the technology isn't yet
>> viable for passenger cars, let alone motorcycles
>
> Which paper?

Peace for our time?

On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 21:53:49 +0100, YTC#1 <ytc1@ytc1.co.uk> wrote:

>On 30/04/2025 12:08, Champ wrote:
>> On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 10:40:22 +0100, Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 29 Apr 2025 17:50:52 +0100, Tim <nobody@home.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>> Research is being done on strange metal-polymer sponges that can hold H2
>>>> and store it at about 3 bar. If this gets off the ground it could solve
>>>> a lot of the H2 issues.

>>> Did you mean 3k bar?

>> Anyway, this paper from Nov 2023 suggests the technology isn't yet
>> viable for passenger cars, let alone motorcycles

>Which paper?

Oops

This one:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352152X23018534
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 29/04/2025 18:50, Tim wrote:
>On 24/04/2025 17:43, Mark Olson wrote:
>> Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 24 Apr 2025 10:53:04 -0000 (UTC), wessie
>>> <willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2025/april/kawasaki-hydrogen-concept/
>>>>
>>>> Supercharged hydrogen-powered Kawasaki H2 concept completes demo lap of Le
>>>> Mans 24 Hours course
>>>
 >Research is being done on strange metal-polymer sponges that can hold H2
>and store it at about 3 bar. If this gets off the ground it could solve
>a lot of the H2 issues.

Sounds similar to how acetylene is stored, dissolved in acetone and absorbed
 by some kind of porous material allowing it to be stored at a relatively
 low pressure (<20 bar)


--
Geoff
NTV 650

On 24/04/2025 20:56, wessie wrote:
> PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote in news:m6viqgFd28cU1@mid.individual.net:
>
>> On 24/04/2025 18:54, furmity wrote:
>>> On Thu, 24 Apr 2025 16:43:44 +0000, Mark Olson wrote:
>>>
>>> [1] Electricity used to produce hydrogen which then needs to be
>>> transported to point of delivery to vehicle (fair amount of losses I
>>> understand) and then needs to be converted in vehicle back to
>>> electricity to turn the wheels.
>>
>> Yes, though there's no reason in theory why a service station couldn't
>> generate and store H2 locally, running continuously off the mains. Or
>> even a small unit outside at home instead of a BEV charger, perhaps. I'm
>> sure there would be a plethora of efficiency and safety issues to work
>> through though.
>>
>
> in theory but the economics are not there

No, not yet, and seeing at it's the Betamax option, maybe not ever. But...

>
> industrial hydrogen is made from ammonia, which in turn is made from
> methane using lots of energy. Not very green.

Yes, currently. Doesn't mean it always has to be that way.

> electrolyis is only viable if you can use off peak electricity such as wind
> power or hydro,

I think you're mixing off-peak with renewable there!

But yes off-peak, hence my comment about local generation and storage
24/7 (or better yet as you say, off-peak) to even out the load.

For now, electrolysing is inefficient and the fuel cells themselves
aren't as efficient as a BEV, but there's definitely progress to be made.


--

CHUMP #1 (CHarge Up Muppet)

Pip

On Fri, 2 May 2025 17:01:02 +0000, PipL wrote:

> No, not yet, and seeing at it's the Betamax option, maybe not ever.

Not sure why you believe it is the betamax option (my memory was betamax
was technically superior to VHS).  I can get it wins at the speed of
fuelling argument.  But beyond that?

Despite having owned electric cars for about ten years, I don't think
I've used public charging more than a handful of times and there are few
things more convenient than simply plugging in at home.

<snip>

> For now, electrolysing is inefficient and the fuel cells themselves
> aren't as efficient as a BEV, but there's definitely progress to be
> made.

So you use electricity to make hydrogen 'somehow'.  Then you store the
hydrogen and later use it to fuel a vehicle.  Once in the vehicle you
use hydrogen to make electricity to run the vehicle.  Hmm.
So you need to improve:
- Electrolysis efficiency.
- Hydrogen distribution/storage
- Fuel cell efficiency.

On 03/05/2025 17:06, furmity wrote:
> On Fri, 2 May 2025 17:01:02 +0000, PipL wrote:
>
>> No, not yet, and seeing at it's the Betamax option, maybe not ever.
>
> Not sure why you believe it is the betamax option (my memory was betamax
> was technically superior to VHS).

Yes it was, but I was referring to the fact that VHS won through better
marketing and "infrastructure", i.e. available titles. The technical
advantage of better resolution etc. didn't help Betamax, and yes, it's
not a direct comparison: H2 isn't technically better, just different.

There are a lot of disadvantages to H2, but as one who doesn't like to
stop for more than the minimum time necessary to refuel and, on very
long journeys, grab a snack, the long recharge times, temperature
sensitivity and ageing effects would put me off a BEV car. They will
improve, I'm sure, but not yet.

Temperature in particular is a big problem: you didn't used to be able
to recharge at all if the battery was too cold (this may have changed),
and capacity does drop with low temperatures as well as age, so a double
whammy. Although BEVs are efficient when operating, they're somewhat
less than 100% efficient during charging.

I also have a slightly irrational hatred of batteries - they're fragile
things that need careful looking after, though I suppose modern
management systems rather mitigate that.


--

CHUMP #1 (CHarge Up Muppet)

Pip

PipL wrote:

> On 03/05/2025 17:06, furmity wrote:
>
> > Not sure why you believe it is the betamax option (my memory was
> > betamax was technically superior to VHS).
>
> Yes it was, but I was referring to the fact that VHS won through
> better marketing and "infrastructure", i.e. available titles. The
> technical advantage of better resolution etc. didn't help Betamax,


Betamax lost out to VHS mostly because Sony wouldn't allow porn movies
to be released on it.

--
Chris

On 04/05/2025 09:37, PipL wrote:
> On 03/05/2025 17:06, furmity wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 May 2025 17:01:02 +0000, PipL wrote:
>>
>>> No, not yet, and seeing at it's the Betamax option, maybe not ever.
>>
>> Not sure why you believe it is the betamax option (my memory was betamax
>> was technically superior to VHS).
> <snip>

>
> There are a lot of disadvantages to H2, but as one who doesn't like to
> stop for more than the minimum time necessary to refuel and, on very
> long journeys, grab a snack, the long recharge times, temperature
> sensitivity and ageing effects would put me off a BEV car. They will
> improve, I'm sure, but not yet.

I wonder what the argument was like when petrol power 1st came in.

"I'll stick to my hoirse, I don;t need to go out of the way to find any
fuel, wasting time and worrying about range. Plenty of grass by the side
of the road to keep my horse and cart going"
>



--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 04/05/2025 10:44, CT wrote:
> PipL wrote:
>
>> On 03/05/2025 17:06, furmity wrote:
>>
>>> Not sure why you believe it is the betamax option (my memory was
>>> betamax was technically superior to VHS).
>>
>> Yes it was, but I was referring to the fact that VHS won through
>> better marketing and "infrastructure", i.e. available titles. The
>> technical advantage of better resolution etc. didn't help Betamax,
>
>
> Betamax lost out to VHS mostly because Sony wouldn't allow porn movies
> to be released on it.
>

Like I said: lack of available titles!

--

CHUMP #1 (CHarge Up Muppet)

Pip

On 04/05/2025 10:13, YTC#1 wrote:
> I wonder what the argument was like when petrol power 1st came in.
>
> "I'll stick to my hoirse, I don;t need to go out of the way to find any
> fuel, wasting time and worrying about range. Plenty of grass by the side
> of the road to keep my horse and cart going"

Actually, when petrol power *first* came in, that would have been a
valid argument. No petrol stations. Cars back then needed very different
specialised operation, like routine greasing, oiling, manual ignition
control, manual mixture control, etc. that was very different to the
known equine care (though possibly 'care' was a flexible term). Cars
would have been horrendously expensive too - toys for the rich at first.
But I guess you mean around the time of the Model T.

Steam power came before petrol power and was quite dangerous, with fires
from sparks and devastating boiler explosions not being unheard of. All
sorts of petty laws or byelaws were enacted to limit steam operation,
including taxing them and other rules "in case they scared the horses or
damaged the roads/bridges/think of an argument against". Oh look,
another noisy, unreliable, expensive horseless carriage.

Anyway, it's not like I'm sticking to petrol power forever. I'm an
adopter of EVs already. I'm merely holding back for now when it comes to
cars.

--

CHUMP #1 (CHarge Up Muppet)

Pip

On 04/05/2025 09:37 PipL penned these words:
> as one who doesn't like to
> stop for more than the minimum time necessary to refuel and, on very
> long journeys, grab a snack, the long recharge times, temperature
> sensitivity and ageing effects would put me off a BEV car.

I do reckon these are over hyped. In most modern EV 20 minutes will see a useful
amount of charge from a DC charger and by the time you wander over to the
facilities for a piss that's 1/2 gone, stop for a drink or snack and for sure it
is all used up. And TBF 90% or more of the average punters use will be covered
by overnight home charging, it is for those without a drive or dedicated spot
with power that it is a hard sell

I reckon the current BMS systems will help preserve batteries way better than
the very early adopters.

--
Ian

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
the last priest"

On 04/05/2025 10:44, CT wrote:
> PipL wrote:
>
>> On 03/05/2025 17:06, furmity wrote:
>>
>>> Not sure why you believe it is the betamax option (my memory was
>>> betamax was technically superior to VHS).
>>
>> Yes it was, but I was referring to the fact that VHS won through
>> better marketing and "infrastructure", i.e. available titles. The
>> technical advantage of better resolution etc. didn't help Betamax,
>
>
> Betamax lost out to VHS mostly because Sony wouldn't allow porn movies
> to be released on it.

One of the rare exceptions to the rule that technology advances are
driven by porn and warfare.

On 04/05/2025 19:59, boots wrote:
> On 04/05/2025 09:37 PipL penned these words:
>> as one who doesn't like to
>> stop for more than the minimum time necessary to refuel and, on very
>> long journeys, grab a snack, the long recharge times, temperature
>> sensitivity and ageing effects would put me off a BEV car.
>
> I do reckon these are over hyped.

Certainly not the cold weather thing - the Energica noticeably loses
capacity. Can't say for battery ageing.

In most modern EV 20 minutes will see a useful
> amount of charge

Well, 80% or so, and recharging stations are rarely exactly one
(partial) charge's worth apart. Same for other fuel sources, of course,
but at present we're talking more stops. Admittedly as I get older piss
stops might become more necessary and cars will improve, I'm sure.

> And TBF 90% or more of the average punters use will be covered
> by overnight home charging,

Absolutely, it's what I do, but for me driving across France on my
annual snow pilgrimage it would be a pain in the arse, especially with
the colder conditions at altitude.

Also, how many BEVs can tow a decent distance? There are a few, but only
a few.


--

CHUMP #1 (CHarge Up Muppet)

Pip

On 04/05/2025 22:05, PipL wrote:
>
> Absolutely, it's what I do, but for me driving across France on my
> annual snow pilgrimage it would be a pain in the arse, especially with
> the colder conditions at altitude.
>
> Also, how many BEVs can tow a decent distance? There are a few, but only
> a few.

Hire an ICE car for the really long distance trip?

On 04/05/2025 13:14, PipL wrote:
> On 04/05/2025 10:44, CT wrote:
>> PipL wrote:
>>
>>> On 03/05/2025 17:06, furmity wrote:
>>>
>>>> Not sure why you believe it is the betamax option (my memory was
>>>> betamax was technically superior to VHS).
>>>
>>> Yes it was, but I was referring to the fact that VHS won through
>>> better marketing and "infrastructure", i.e. available titles. The
>>> technical advantage of better resolution etc. didn't help Betamax,
>>
>>
>> Betamax lost out to VHS mostly because Sony wouldn't allow porn movies
>> to be released on it.
>>
>
> Like I said: lack of available tities!
>

FTFY


--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 04/05/2025 13:37, PipL wrote:
> On 04/05/2025 10:13, YTC#1 wrote:
>> I wonder what the argument was like when petrol power 1st came in.
>>
>> "I'll stick to my hoirse, I don;t need to go out of the way to find
>> any fuel, wasting time and worrying about range. Plenty of grass by
>> the side of the road to keep my horse and cart going"
>
> Actually, when petrol power *first* came in, that would have been a
> valid argument. No petrol stations. Cars back then needed very different
> specialised operation, like routine greasing, oiling, manual ignition
> control, manual mixture control, etc. that was very different to the
> known equine care (though possibly 'care' was a flexible term). Cars
> would have been horrendously expensive too - toys for the rich at first.
> But I guess you mean around the time of the Model T.

That was all sort of my point :-), but worded so much better.

>
> Steam power came before petrol power and was quite dangerous, with fires
> from sparks and devastating boiler explosions not being unheard of. All
> sorts of petty laws or byelaws were enacted to limit steam operation,
> including taxing them and other rules "in case they scared the horses or
> damaged the roads/bridges/think of an argument against". Oh look,
> another noisy, unreliable, expensive horseless carriage.

Again, it has similarities to the current motive fuel discussions.
>
> Anyway, it's not like I'm sticking to petrol power forever. I'm an
> adopter of EVs already. I'm merely holding back for now when it comes to
> cars.
>

I suppose the less distance I do, the more likely an EV will arrive. A 2
wheeled one will most likely be 1st.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

n 04/05/2025 22:05 PipL penned these words:
> On 04/05/2025 19:59, boots wrote:
>> On 04/05/2025 09:37 PipL penned these words:
>>> as one who doesn't like to
>>> stop for more than the minimum time necessary to refuel and, on very
>>> long journeys, grab a snack, the long recharge times, temperature
>>> sensitivity and ageing effects would put me off a BEV car.
>>
>> I do reckon these are over hyped.
>
> Certainly not the cold weather thing - the Energica noticeably loses
> capacity. Can't say for battery ageing.

The earlier cars (think 1st gen leafs etc) had poor BMS I'd hope that's mostly
solved. There's a few Tesla apparently with 400k miles, I see driving schools
using EV now and at a few taxi are MGs and they're doing big mileage. Haven't
had one long enough to say for sure but it looks to me that I lost about 15%
range in the colder weather.

> In most modern EV 20 minutes will see a useful
>> amount of charge
>
> Well, 80% or so, and recharging stations are rarely exactly one
> (partial) charge's worth apart.


TBF there's shed loads now and more all the time. It is the eye watering prices
that are a pain. I understand they have to recover costs, the energy supplied is
a commercial rates and of course there is the 20% Vague Additions Totaled unlike
home charging. Tesla <spit> are the least spendy by a fair way.

Had a look out of interest
URL:https://www.zap-map.com/ev-stats/how-many-charging-points nearly 80k public
chargers at 40k locations. These will obviously range from lamppost AC chargers
to the big mega hubs on major routes.


> Admittedly as I get older piss
> stops might become more necessary and cars will improve, I'm sure.\

Ha. I am now at the point where I make an active decision not to have another
cuppa before trucking around to see the aged parent 70 odd miles and 90 minutes
to avoid arriving bursting or needing to stop.
>
>> And TBF 90% or more of the average punters use will be covered
>> by overnight home charging,
>
> Absolutely, it's what I do, but for me driving across France on my
> annual snow pilgrimage it would be a pain in the arse, especially with
> the colder conditions at altitude.
>
> Also, how many BEVs can tow a decent distance? There are a few, but only
> a few.

Yeah towing seems to be an Achilles heel, obviously it would impact range but
why so many cannot tow even a small trailer? OTOH I see there are now EV buses,
trucks and ferries
--
Ian

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
the last priest"

On 05/05/2025 00:25, Mike Fleming wrote:
> On 04/05/2025 22:05, PipL wrote:
>>
>> Absolutely, it's what I do, but for me driving across France on my
>> annual snow pilgrimage it would be a pain in the arse, especially with
>> the colder conditions at altitude.
>>
>> Also, how many BEVs can tow a decent distance? There are a few, but
>> only a few.
>
> Hire an ICE car for the really long distance trip?

I thought of that, but a PITA (and extra cost); easier to put up with
recharge stops. Think I've only driven 2 hire cars and one van in my
life, and only the van was something I hired myself.

--

CHUMP #1 (CHarge Up Muppet)

Pip

On 05/05/2025 00:25, Mike Fleming wrote:
> On 04/05/2025 22:05, PipL wrote:
>>
>> Absolutely, it's what I do, but for me driving across France on my
>> annual snow pilgrimage it would be a pain in the arse, especially with
>> the colder conditions at altitude.
>>
>> Also, how many BEVs can tow a decent distance? There are a few, but
>> only a few.
>
> Hire an ICE car for the really long distance trip?

Oh, and another reason against: for the Alps you must have 3PMS tyres
and snow chains that fit. Even if one could find a UK hire company that
provides a car so fitted, I imagine they'd charge a hefty premium for it.



--

CHUMP #1 (CHarge Up Muppet)

Pip

On Sun, 4 May 2025 18:59:56 +0000, boots wrote:


> I reckon the current BMS systems will help preserve batteries way better
> than the very early adopters.


I had a 2014(?) Vauxhall Ampera which was showing some signs of battery
degradation when I traded it in.

The 2017 Nissan leaf which replaced it had no battery degradation at the
time of sale (about 40k miles done) (at least, according to the service
check).

The current 2020 leaf has 45k on the clock and again... no battery
degradation.

However, I only AC charge (so it's a slowish 7kW charge) and I guess
that's kinder to the battery.

I think the stories about 'having to spend £xxxk to replace my battery
after 7 years' are spread to encourage FUD designed to make some people
decide to stick with an ICE option when changing cars.

Having said all that... I think the sweet spot is having electric for
most use and petrol for the odd long journey/holiday.

On Mon, 5 May 2025 12:52:47 +0000, furmity <no@email.com> wrote:

>Having said all that... I think the sweet spot is having electric for
>most use and petrol for the odd long journey/holiday.

Absolutely. We went for a plug-in Prius.

--
Colin Irvine
R1250RS

Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in news:0goj1klfsrr2pdduep14esndsguqvut04e@
4ax.com:

> On Sun, 4 May 2025 09:37:25 +0100, PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:
>
>>H2 isn't technically better, just different.
>
> I've just realised.remembered - chemical symbol for hydrogen is H2
>
> So the Kawasaki prototype is the H2 H2.   I guess this is probably why
> they used that bike, but I missed the marketing of this, if there even
> was any

it's in the subject like wot I wrote

On Sun, 4 May 2025 09:37:25 +0100, PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:

>H2 isn't technically better, just different.

I've just realised.remembered - chemical symbol for hydrogen is H2

So the Kawasaki prototype is the H2 H2.   I guess this is probably why
they used that bike, but I missed the marketing of this, if there even
was any
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Sun, 4 May 2025 13:37:33 +0100, PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:

>Steam power came before petrol power and was quite dangerous, with fires
>from sparks and devastating boiler explosions not being unheard of. All
>sorts of petty laws or byelaws were enacted to limit steam operation,
>including taxing them and other rules "in case they scared the horses or
>damaged the roads/bridges/think of an argument against". Oh look,
>another noisy, unreliable, expensive horseless carriage.

Actually, most of that legislation was created following intensive
lobbying by the railway industry, who obviously had a vested interest
in slowing development of personal transport
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Tue, 6 May 2025 10:31:54 -0000 (UTC), wessie
<willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:

>Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in news:0goj1klfsrr2pdduep14esndsguqvut04e@
>4ax.com:
>
>> On Sun, 4 May 2025 09:37:25 +0100, PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:
>>
>>>H2 isn't technically better, just different.
>>
>> I've just realised.remembered - chemical symbol for hydrogen is H2
>>
>> So the Kawasaki prototype is the H2 H2.   I guess this is probably why
>> they used that bike, but I missed the marketing of this, if there even
>> was any

>it's in the subject like wot I wrote

er, yeah

I've had a lot on my mind...
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 24/04/2025 13:22, Champ wrote:
> I'm glad to see someone [1] doing this work, but it's not going to be
> practical until

You want practical?!?

How about a Kawasaki hydrogen powered robot horse!

<https://newatlas.com/automotive/kawasaki-corleo-robot-horse/>

And the best bit is: not only does the hydrogen motor produce nothing
but water vapour, the entire thing is made of vapour. ;-)

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

On Thu, 8 May 2025 00:02:15 +0100, Bruce <07.013@scorecrow.com> wrote:

>You want practical?!?
>
>How about a Kawasaki hydrogen powered robot horse!
>
><https://newatlas.com/automotive/kawasaki-corleo-robot-horse/>
>
>And the best bit is: not only does the hydrogen motor produce nothing
>but water vapour, the entire thing is made of vapour. ;-)

<gob smacked>
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 07/05/2025 20:46, Champ wrote:
> On Tue, 6 May 2025 10:31:54 -0000 (UTC), wessie
> <willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:
>
>> Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in news:0goj1klfsrr2pdduep14esndsguqvut04e@
>> 4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Sun, 4 May 2025 09:37:25 +0100, PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:
>>>
>>>> H2 isn't technically better, just different.
>>>
>>> I've just realised.remembered - chemical symbol for hydrogen is H2
>>>
>>> So the Kawasaki prototype is the H2 H2.   I guess this is probably why
>>> they used that bike, but I missed the marketing of this, if there even
>>> was any
>
>> it's in the subject like wot I wrote
>
> er, yeah
>
> I've had a lot on my mind...

That's married life for you :-)


--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 10/05/2025 22:01, PipL wrote:
>On 01/05/2025 18:16, geoffC wrote:
>>
>> Sounds similar to how acetylene is stored, dissolved in acetone and
>> absorbed
>> by some kind of porous material allowing it to be stored at a relatively
>> low pressure (<20 bar)
>
>That is what it sounds like, though ISTR that charging acetylene
>cylinders is a slow process.

Usually done by a young lady with a set o' lean legs :-)
--
Geoff
NTV 650