🚀 go-pugleaf

PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:
> Looks as though my earlier guess that the problem is throttle sensor
> related has more evidence: a reset didn't cure it, but it is definitely
> related to the throttle being opened wide, even in "parking" mode, where
> power is limited to a handful of HP at most and speed is less than
> walking pace.
>
> I'll have someone pull the codes properly and if there's no evidence to
> the contrary, buy a new throttle. It's possible I can find one online: I
> very much doubt Energica make their own and some electrics at least are
> the same as Aprilia ones.

I can't speak for Energica, but at the err 'more budget' (Chinesium) scooter
end of the market throttles are a simple potentiometer.  It gets 0V and 5V
and returns a voltage from 0 to 5V depending on the position of the wiper.
It's common for the wiper to oxidise and become glitchy open circuit, which
is typically thrown up as an error.

If you look at the wiring and see three wires there's a good chance it's a
pot.  You can multimeter out the resistance to check.  If so, you can sub in
any throttle containing a pot of similar value.  (although obviously finding
one that fits mechanically is a separate issue)

Theo

On 24/05/2025 09:36, Theo wrote:
>PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:
>> Looks as though my earlier guess that the problem is throttle sensor
>> related has more evidence: a reset didn't cure it, but it is definitely
>> related to the throttle being opened wide, even in "parking" mode, where
>> power is limited to a handful of HP at most and speed is less than
>> walking pace.
>>
>> I'll have someone pull the codes properly and if there's no evidence to
>> the contrary, buy a new throttle. It's possible I can find one online: I
>> very much doubt Energica make their own and some electrics at least are
>> the same as Aprilia ones.
>
>I can't speak for Energica, but at the err 'more budget' (Chinesium) scooter
>end of the market throttles are a simple potentiometer.  It gets 0V and 5V
>and returns a voltage from 0 to 5V depending on the position of the wiper.
>It's common for the wiper to oxidise and become glitchy open circuit, which
>is typically thrown up as an error.
>
>If you look at the wiring and see three wires there's a good chance it's a
>pot.  You can multimeter out the resistance to check.  If so, you can sub in
>any throttle containing a pot of similar value.  (although obviously finding
>one that fits mechanically is a separate issue)
>

Sounds like a good squirt of contact spray could be worth a punt?


--
Geoff
NTV 650

On 24/05/2025 08:36, Theo wrote:
> PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:
>> Looks as though my earlier guess that the problem is throttle sensor
>> related has more evidence: a reset didn't cure it, but it is definitely
>> related to the throttle being opened wide, even in "parking" mode, where
>> power is limited to a handful of HP at most and speed is less than
>> walking pace.
>>
>> I'll have someone pull the codes properly and if there's no evidence to
>> the contrary, buy a new throttle. It's possible I can find one online: I
>> very much doubt Energica make their own and some electrics at least are
>> the same as Aprilia ones.
>
> I can't speak for Energica, but at the err 'more budget' (Chinesium) scooter
> end of the market throttles are a simple potentiometer.  It gets 0V and 5V
> and returns a voltage from 0 to 5V depending on the position of the wiper.
> It's common for the wiper to oxidise and become glitchy open circuit, which
> is typically thrown up as an error.

The earlier ones were: this is a Hall one, apparently. Might still
output 0-5V though.



--

CHUMP #1 (CHarge Up Muppet)

Pip

geoffC <me@home.nl> wrote:
> On 24/05/2025 09:36, Theo wrote:
> >PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:
> >> Looks as though my earlier guess that the problem is throttle sensor
> >> related has more evidence: a reset didn't cure it, but it is definitely
> >> related to the throttle being opened wide, even in "parking" mode, where
> >> power is limited to a handful of HP at most and speed is less than
> >> walking pace.
> >>
> >> I'll have someone pull the codes properly and if there's no evidence to
> >> the contrary, buy a new throttle. It's possible I can find one online: I
> >> very much doubt Energica make their own and some electrics at least are
> >> the same as Aprilia ones.
> >
> >I can't speak for Energica, but at the err 'more budget' (Chinesium) scooter
> >end of the market throttles are a simple potentiometer.  It gets 0V and 5V
> >and returns a voltage from 0 to 5V depending on the position of the wiper.
> >It's common for the wiper to oxidise and become glitchy open circuit, which
> >is typically thrown up as an error.
> >
> >If you look at the wiring and see three wires there's a good chance it's a
> >pot.  You can multimeter out the resistance to check.  If so, you can sub in
> >any throttle containing a pot of similar value.  (although obviously finding
> >one that fits mechanically is a separate issue)
> >
>
> Sounds like a good squirt of contact spray could be worth a punt?

Possibly, although I expect it has some degree of waterproofing.

If this fits all Energica models:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/194234145752

it looks like there's a mechanical steel cable from the twist throttle,
which means there must be a throttle position sensor on the end of the
cable, ie this kind of setup, the dual TPSes being the parts with the 'big
mouth' at top and bottom of the stack:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/326217509020

Many TPSes also use the 3 wire pot principle, although that picture (not the
right model) appears to have 6 pins at each end.  Maybe it has two pots
internally or extra switches or something.

If you can get a part number off the TPS I'd guess it's going to be a
standard replacement part from a tier 1 or 2 manufacturer - eg that one says
Magnetti Marelli on it.

Theo

PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:
> On 24/05/2025 08:36, Theo wrote:

>> I can't speak for Energica, but at the err 'more budget' (Chinesium) scooter
>> end of the market throttles are a simple potentiometer.  It gets 0V and 5V
>> and returns a voltage from 0 to 5V depending on the position of the wiper.
>> It's common for the wiper to oxidise and become glitchy open circuit, which
>> is typically thrown up as an error.
>
> The earlier ones were: this is a Hall one, apparently. Might still
> output 0-5V though.

And if it's like my Toyota, there's two outputs in case one is
glitching/intermittent.

On 24/05/2025 11:13, Theo wrote:
> If this fits all Energica models:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/194234145752
>
> it looks like there's a mechanical steel cable from the twist throttle,
> which means there must be a throttle position sensor on the end of the
> cable, ie this kind of setup, the dual TPSes being the parts with the 'big
> mouth' at top and bottom of the stack:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/326217509020

I suspect ebay or the seller's page has a bit of pseudo-AI that took
your search term and made up a near equivalent, or the seller just
randomly picked bikes to add to their ads. I notice the page doesn't
mention a model.

My bike has the TPS on the handlebar - no mechanical cables at all. I
suppose the adventure model might use mechanical cables: it's a
completely different beast.

> Many TPSes also use the 3 wire pot principle, although that picture (not the
> right model) appears to have 6 pins at each end.  Maybe it has two pots
> internally or extra switches or something.

If the dealer can't supply anything, after poking around inside this one
then what I might try is tapping into the cable with a tee (I suspect
it'll be yer bog standard marine connector at the other end) and logging
exactly what the wires are doing.

> If you can get a part number off the TPS I'd guess it's going to be a
> standard replacement part from a tier 1 or 2 manufacturer - eg that one says
> Magnetti Marelli on it.

Yep, that was my thought. I had a look on ebay for Aprilia ones but it's
quite possible that I'll have to go to the spares pages of a dealer.
Unlikely to be cheap: an indicator alone costs several dozen quid IIRC.

--

CHUMP #1 (CHarge Up Muppet)

Pip

PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:
> On 24/05/2025 11:13, Theo wrote:
> > If this fits all Energica models:
> > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/194234145752
> >
> > it looks like there's a mechanical steel cable from the twist throttle,
> > which means there must be a throttle position sensor on the end of the
> > cable, ie this kind of setup, the dual TPSes being the parts with the 'big
> > mouth' at top and bottom of the stack:
> > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/326217509020
>
> I suspect ebay or the seller's page has a bit of pseudo-AI that took
> your search term and made up a near equivalent, or the seller just
> randomly picked bikes to add to their ads. I notice the page doesn't
> mention a model.

Yes, I suppose the first is a generic part they hope will fit lots of models. They
may not have done very much due diligence on which :)

> My bike has the TPS on the handlebar - no mechanical cables at all. I
> suppose the adventure model might use mechanical cables: it's a
> completely different beast.

OK, so that makes it a bit different.

> > Many TPSes also use the 3 wire pot principle, although that picture (not the
> > right model) appears to have 6 pins at each end.  Maybe it has two pots
> > internally or extra switches or something.
>
> If the dealer can't supply anything, after poking around inside this one
> then what I might try is tapping into the cable with a tee (I suspect
> it'll be yer bog standard marine connector at the other end) and logging
> exactly what the wires are doing.
>
> > If you can get a part number off the TPS I'd guess it's going to be a
> > standard replacement part from a tier 1 or 2 manufacturer - eg that one says
> > Magnetti Marelli on it.
>
> Yep, that was my thought. I had a look on ebay for Aprilia ones but it's
> quite possible that I'll have to go to the spares pages of a dealer.
> Unlikely to be cheap: an indicator alone costs several dozen quid IIRC.

I searched the part number on the TPS in that Aprilia RSV4 2010-14 listing -
CA0090983A and it came up with an interesting thread:
https://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?379084-Demand-sensor-A-Deep-Dive
and it turns out to be a Melexis MLX90251 programmable hall sensor chip.

If you search "site:apriliaforum.com demand sensor" it appears there are
lots of problems with them, on mid 2010s bikes anyway.  But maybe the
handlebar sensors are different.

Theo

On 24/05/2025 19:15, Theo wrote:
> I searched the part number on the TPS in that Aprilia RSV4 2010-14 listing -
> CA0090983A and it came up with an interesting thread:
> https://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?379084-Demand-sensor-A-Deep-Dive
> and it turns out to be a Melexis MLX90251 programmable hall sensor chip.


That's interesting, but a complete rebuild would be a last resort, I
think. If the EEPROM isn't locked then it should be readable.

> If you search "site:apriliaforum.com demand sensor" it appears there are
> lots of problems with them, on mid 2010s bikes anyway.  But maybe the
> handlebar sensors are different.

I was looking at the 1100 Tuono. Unfortunately, it's not a cheap "try it
and see" option: >290 euros from the German site I found.

So first option is to open it up and check that it's not something
obvious, like a bit of metallic debris or loose wire or something.

Second is to get it properly diagnosed and try to buy a replacement.

Third, if they're not available, start mapping its behaviour for a DIY fix.

Last resort: try a Tuono one, though those ones don't have the heated
grip connections, which would be sad.

--

CHUMP #1 (CHarge Up Muppet)

Pip

PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:
> On 24/05/2025 19:15, Theo wrote:
> > I searched the part number on the TPS in that Aprilia RSV4 2010-14 listing -
> > CA0090983A and it came up with an interesting thread:
> > https://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?379084-Demand-sensor-A-Deep-Dive
> > and it turns out to be a Melexis MLX90251 programmable hall sensor chip.
>
>
> That's interesting, but a complete rebuild would be a last resort, I
> think. If the EEPROM isn't locked then it should be readable.

They said you have to program it with currents and voltages.  Sounds rather
unusual, but makes it harder to dump out the old one.  An unprogrammed one
didn't work.

> > If you search "site:apriliaforum.com demand sensor" it appears there are
> > lots of problems with them, on mid 2010s bikes anyway.  But maybe the
> > handlebar sensors are different.
>
> I was looking at the 1100 Tuono. Unfortunately, it's not a cheap "try it
> and see" option: >290 euros from the German site I found.

Is it like this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/326591142085
and this one has clearer numbers on it:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/167246688276

2D000095
906-716-002
20288282

but also has a handy sticker on the bag:
Dis.: 2D000095
Descrizione: ACCELERATORE COMANDO ELECTTRONICO
Quantita: 1
Data: 15-GEN-21
Lotto: 256959

and searching 2D000095 comes up with various sites selling it.  This one is
marginally cheaper than those above at EUR100 plus 24.50 shipping:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144331428973
or another for GBP125:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/156942433078

> So first option is to open it up and check that it's not something
> obvious, like a bit of metallic debris or loose wire or something.
>
> Second is to get it properly diagnosed and try to buy a replacement.
>
> Third, if they're not available, start mapping its behaviour for a DIY fix.
>
> Last resort: try a Tuono one, though those ones don't have the heated
> grip connections, which would be sad.

Order one of the £125 ones (first or last above) which are UK business
sellers and have 30 or 60 day returns policies?  If they work, that would
tell you something, even if you ultimately returned them.

Are you sure the grip is integral, and not something slipped over the
throttle shaft?  eg this throttle:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/365397100516
says it's made for heated grips, but there's just the regular 6 pin harness
with no heater wires, so the grips must fit over the top of it.

Theo

On 24/05/2025 23:16, Theo wrote:
> PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:
>> On 24/05/2025 19:15, Theo wrote:
>>> I searched the part number on the TPS in that Aprilia RSV4 2010-14 listing -
>>> CA0090983A and it came up with an interesting thread:
>>> https://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?379084-Demand-sensor-A-Deep-Dive
>>> and it turns out to be a Melexis MLX90251 programmable hall sensor chip.
>>
>>
>> That's interesting, but a complete rebuild would be a last resort, I
>> think. If the EEPROM isn't locked then it should be readable.
>
> They said you have to program it with currents and voltages.  Sounds rather
> unusual, but makes it harder to dump out the old one.  An unprogrammed one
> didn't work.
>
>>> If you search "site:apriliaforum.com demand sensor" it appears there are
>>> lots of problems with them, on mid 2010s bikes anyway.  But maybe the
>>> handlebar sensors are different.
>>
>> I was looking at the 1100 Tuono. Unfortunately, it's not a cheap "try it
>> and see" option: >290 euros from the German site I found.
>
> Is it like this:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/326591142085
> and this one has clearer numbers on it:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/167246688276
>
> 2D000095
> 906-716-002
> 20288282
>
> but also has a handy sticker on the bag:
> Dis.: 2D000095
> Descrizione: ACCELERATORE COMANDO ELECTTRONICO
> Quantita: 1
> Data: 15-GEN-21
> Lotto: 256959
>
> and searching 2D000095 comes up with various sites selling it.  This one is
> marginally cheaper than those above at EUR100 plus 24.50 shipping:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144331428973
> or another for GBP125:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/156942433078

They're all interesting, in that they seem to be six-wire units, which
the Energica is. As I found out today. I was going to say
"unfortunately", however, Mark O commented on the possibly of dual
units, which might explain the amount of wiring.

Haven't opened it up yet: I need to dig out my security bit set.


Wrong connector, but that's fixable.


--

CHUMP #1 (CHarge Up Muppet)

Pip

On 24/05/2025 23:16, Theo wrote:
> PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:
>> On 24/05/2025 19:15, Theo wrote:
>>> I searched the part number on the TPS in that Aprilia RSV4 2010-14 listing -
>>> CA0090983A and it came up with an interesting thread:
>>> https://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?379084-Demand-sensor-A-Deep-Dive
>>> and it turns out to be a Melexis MLX90251 programmable hall sensor chip.
>>
>>
>> That's interesting, but a complete rebuild would be a last resort, I
>> think. If the EEPROM isn't locked then it should be readable.
>
> They said you have to program it with currents and voltages.  Sounds rather
> unusual, but makes it harder to dump out the old one.  An unprogrammed one
> didn't work.

Looks as though I won't have to - it's a Bitron, same as used on Zeros.
Looks the same, has the same 8-pin connector. The connector wiring
colours also match in sequence, thanks to someone posting the wire
functions on an Ebike forum. And yes, it's a dual analogue output 0.5V -
4.5V from a 5V excitation according to the forum post.

I took it apart, well, took the alloy covers off. Underneath is just a
fairly plain white plastic drum with a rotating part. It's an utter pig
to put back together - I've kind of bolted it together temporarily, but
the grip heating wires are fouling something, I think, so it doesn't
turn smoothly.


--

CHUMP #1 (CHarge Up Muppet)

Pip

PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:
> On 24/05/2025 23:16, Theo wrote:
> > PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:
> >> On 24/05/2025 19:15, Theo wrote:
> >>> I searched the part number on the TPS in that Aprilia RSV4 2010-14 listing -
> >>> CA0090983A and it came up with an interesting thread:
> >>> https://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?379084-Demand-sensor-A-Deep-Dive
> >>> and it turns out to be a Melexis MLX90251 programmable hall sensor chip.
> >>
> >>
> >> That's interesting, but a complete rebuild would be a last resort, I
> >> think. If the EEPROM isn't locked then it should be readable.
> >
> > They said you have to program it with currents and voltages.  Sounds rather
> > unusual, but makes it harder to dump out the old one.  An unprogrammed one
> > didn't work.
>
> Looks as though I won't have to - it's a Bitron, same as used on Zeros.
> Looks the same, has the same 8-pin connector. The connector wiring
> colours also match in sequence, thanks to someone posting the wire
> functions on an Ebike forum. And yes, it's a dual analogue output 0.5V -
> 4.5V from a 5V excitation according to the forum post.

That's handy.  This connector?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126922275857

> I took it apart, well, took the alloy covers off. Underneath is just a
> fairly plain white plastic drum with a rotating part. It's an utter pig
> to put back together - I've kind of bolted it together temporarily, but
> the grip heating wires are fouling something, I think, so it doesn't
> turn smoothly.

I suppose that gives you a bit of flexibility of what to replace it with, if
the original part isn't available.  Or at least can rig up something
temporarily to test if it is indeed the source of the problem before going
parts shopping.

Could for example put a logger on the output voltage and see if you can
catch blips that cause it to go turtle.

Theo

On 28/05/2025 09:27, Theo wrote:
> PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:
>> Looks as though I won't have to - it's a Bitron, same as used on Zeros.
>> Looks the same, has the same 8-pin connector. The connector wiring
>> colours also match in sequence, thanks to someone posting the wire
>> functions on an Ebike forum. And yes, it's a dual analogue output 0.5V -
>> 4.5V from a 5V excitation according to the forum post.
>
> That's handy.  This connector?
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126922275857


That's the one. I just checked by poking sewing pins into the back of
the connector: wiring matches, voltages match. It is dual analogue apart
from the "digital input". Interestingly, one "pot" reads 0.5V to 4.5V,
the other reads 4.5V to 0.5V. I guess it's in case GND goes open - you
really don't want it to fail to full chat. The reverse of light aircraft
throttles, I believe.

I made a rather rash decision to gamble around £250 on a new SR/S
throttle rather than risk an ebay one.

Just hope it isn't something else masquerading as a throttle problem. Or
the "digital input" has some sort of ID chip hanging off it, but I
suspect it's for a "throttle closed" switch or an aux function.

--

CHUMP #1 (CHarge Up Muppet)

Pip

PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:
> That's the one. I just checked by poking sewing pins into the back of
> the connector: wiring matches, voltages match. It is dual analogue apart
> from the "digital input". Interestingly, one "pot" reads 0.5V to 4.5V,
> the other reads 4.5V to 0.5V. I guess it's in case GND goes open - you
> really don't want it to fail to full chat. The reverse of light aircraft
> throttles, I believe.

Possibly it's just because the two pots on the same shaft are facing
opposite ways.  ie assuming classic single turn pots with the terminals at
the bottom, if pot A has its shaft pointing right and is in the fully
anticlockwise position (7 o'clock looking down its shaft, to the left),
pot B will be facing left and fully clockwise (5 o'clock looking down its
shaft, to the right).  As you turn the combined shaft A will go 7..12..1..5
and B will go 5..1..12..7, so the voltages will go in antiphase.  They could
of course cross-wire them to counteract that, but as you say it's a handy
failsafe.

> I made a rather rash decision to gamble around £250 on a new SR/S
> throttle rather than risk an ebay one.

Fair enough.  I suppose you can always return if it doesn't fix it.

> Just hope it isn't something else masquerading as a throttle problem. Or
> the "digital input" has some sort of ID chip hanging off it, but I
> suspect it's for a "throttle closed" switch or an aux function.

Some kind of switch sounds plausible - if you release the throttle you want
to be sure it's 'off' and not at '2%', which could cause troubles.

Theo

On 28/05/2025 21:57, Theo wrote:
> PipL <pip@nowhere.nul> wrote:
>> That's the one. I just checked by poking sewing pins into the back of
>> the connector: wiring matches, voltages match. It is dual analogue apart
>> from the "digital input". Interestingly, one "pot" reads 0.5V to 4.5V,
>> the other reads 4.5V to 0.5V. I guess it's in case GND goes open - you
>> really don't want it to fail to full chat. The reverse of light aircraft
>> throttles, I believe.
>
> Possibly it's just because the two pots on the same shaft are facing
> opposite ways.

Well, it would be easy to wire the other way round in that case.

It has to be a deliberate fail-safe to prevent a WOT with either +5 or
OV going open. I guess one could still detect a difference even if both
were wired the same way up, but a double fault with both 0V's going open
together (OK, unlikely as they're independently wired) would show no
difference between the two throttle "pots" and couldn't be spotted by a
throttle position disagreement. The fact that the range is 0.5V to 4.5V
with 5V excitation might make it detectable as an signal out of range
error, but one "pot" showing fully open and one showing fully closed is
unequivocal.


--

CHUMP #1 (CHarge Up Muppet)

Pip