🚀 go-pugleaf

On 28/04/2025 12:24 am, John wrote:
> I asked Mike, during a recent discussion, regarding sin, and mentioned a
> believer falling for a beautiful woman and committing adultery.
>
> Mike said:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There is no adultery.
>
> Believe me, it is not about sin with the Lord; He dealt with that. It is
> all about your whole heart, and you can't clean it up by stopping porn,
> or alcohol, or stopping sex, or swearing, or vainly trying to clean up
> anything else in your life—I am not saying you do any of that, but you
> haven't got the power to remove one jot or tittle of sin in you.
>
> Nada.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I agree that you haven't got the power to remove sin yourself, and that
> by being close to God it is removed, but that doesn't mean you can't
> fall to temptation at a later date. Although I was never a womaniser I
> did have some bad traits (more than I realised as I thought I was a good
> person when in spiritualsm) but God took those bad traits away.  In my
> case it was instant but I know for others it can be a struggle, which
> imo becomes the Holy Spirit's work to convict them.
>
> David was very much on fire for the Lord. He was a womaniser but after
> he came to know the Lord his life changed completely. He found he no
> longer had the desire to chase women and everyone remarked how his life
> had changed.
>
> Some years later a beautiful lady starts at his place of work, she sets
> out to seduce him and they begin an affair. After a few months Johnny
> feels guilty and ends the affair, and repents of his sin.
>
> What is David's spiritual state before, during and after the affair.
>
> My own view is that David's ego has got the better of him and he's gone
> into the affair knowing it to be wrong. The relationship between himself
> and God is marred and Got is grieved.  The Holy Spirit is however
> convicting him of his sin and when David realises this he repents and
> turns fully back to God.

> Would you agree Mike, or does it work differently in your eyes, and if
> it does, then how?

Different. Was David's repenting of wrong accounted to him as
righteousness? Or is it faith? It was more than about sin, it was
David's whole life, his heart's plea to God for God would make a way for
him to turn his whole heart fully to Him (e.g., Psalms), once and for
all. He succeeded in the end, and died in the faith.

1) In my comment above, there is a distinguishing between (had been
snipped) two matters: "God's "Christian" is vastly different from man's
"Christian"; you want man's "Christian."

2) There is no revolving door to "swan" through at will, back and forth,
in regard to God's requirement of obedience. David learned that.

3) David finally put aside the thoughts of his heart as reality and
allowed God to place His thoughts as reality in David's heart; Rev_3:20 
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and
open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

You see God working in that way all through the Bible. That is what you
must do: allow Him to substitute your thoughts for what He says—your
fiction for His truth.

3) Praise the Lord, it is not about your "wrongness" with God, adultery,
stealing, lying, selfishness, and/or what your particular bent is. It is
about your willingness to let go of it (e.g., the rich young ruler). But
if you hold on to your thoughts and ways and feelings, you are not going
to go anywhere, and neither did David until he agreed to let go of 'his
will be done (vanity of vanities).'

4) Why is everyone always speaking about sin all the time, what it is,
how it is committed, and how not to try and do it? It is not God's focus
or care. The veil of the temple was rent in twain (access to His
presence, open); man's sin was dealt with on the cross, once and for
all—grace for all.

5) What remains, then? Certainly not trying to raise yourself up in your
sin state to righteousness, that is for sure; you can't. What remains is
to find His will in your daily life and do it. Then He will remove that
"wrongness (like David's wrongness)" in your heart with the washing of
His will. In David's case (pre-crucifixion), in readiness for the
Messiah to come, but for us, He is here now.

Isaiah 1:18  Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:
though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though
they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

God is saying I can clean you up, create a new heart in you, and renew a
right spirit in you, but He needs your God-given free will obedience—to
do as you are told—no part-time, swinging-door, half-baked, lukewarm
unbelieverism...

John 2:5  His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto
you, do it.

Come as a little child. Did you ever do everything your mother told you?
Pointing to, time to do as your Father says, no mucking around with the
world and disbelief anymore!

The Lord is not going to reveal His will to you if you are not all in;
all in or all out. It is that that stops many because they want their
own thoughts and ways, at best a mix, a combo, a mutual cake mix of
their own thoughts and God's thoughts.

No! That is not going to happen! God is not by any measure a construct
of man's approval. Bottom line: it is His way or the highway.

6) Now what is confusing about any of that, other than the impetus to
find God's will in your daily life and do it, which will take prayer and
heart, and prayer and heart, and prayer and heart, believing in Him and
believing in Him to NOT lead you to destruction. To follow Him out of
Egypt and into the desert for a season and on and into the promised
land, which is Himself. "For many are called, but few are chosen," which
means to me, few choose.

7) 7, the number of God, so they say. All in or all out.




Mike

--
God is God in all His Being. All the glory is His, for He is all glory.

On 28/04/2025 11:32, In the Name of Jesus wrote:
> On 28/04/2025 12:24 am, John wrote:
>


>> Some years later a beautiful lady starts at his place of work, she
>> sets out to seduce him and they begin an affair. After a few months
>> Johnny feels guilty and ends the affair, and repents of his sin.
>>
>> What is David's spiritual state before, during and after the affair.

>> My own view is that David's ego has got the better of him and he's
>> gone into the affair knowing it to be wrong. The relationship between
>> himself and God is marred and Got is grieved.  The Holy Spirit is
>> however convicting him of his sin and when David realises this he
>> repents and turns fully back to God.
>
>> Would you agree Mike, or does it work differently in your eyes, and if
>> it does, then how?
>
> Different. Was David's repenting of wrong accounted to him as
> righteousness? Or is it faith? It was more than about sin, it was
> David's whole life, his heart's plea to God for God would make a way for
> him to turn his whole heart fully to Him (e.g., Psalms), once and for
> all. He succeeded in the end, and died in the faith.

So basically, are you saying sin doesn't matter, but by being obedient
to God He will take any sin actions so that you sin no more?

Despite you saying I only had man's Christianity, that is exactly what
happened when I first became a Christian, and that happened in an
instant. My sins were washed away, I no longer wanted to sin.

If I did something wrong, eg I had a fall out with my future mother in
law just before I got married, as my fiancee was upset that her mum was
takiung over in organising our wedding plans. As she left the house we
live in I was quite sharp with her. Mulling it over a few days later,
quite indignantly, I "heard" an inner voice saying "Go and apologise"
which I did during my lunch hour the same day.

Now I believe that was the Holy Spirit convicting me I was wrong, I
didn't believe I was wrong until I "heard" that, but when I did, I knew
I had to put it right.  Is that not being obedient to God?
>
> 1) In my comment above, there is a distinguishing between (had been
> snipped) two matters: "God's "Christian" is vastly different from man's
> "Christian"; you want man's "Christian."

You seem pretty convinced that I want man's Christianity, and not God's.
  I don't believe that's true.


> 2) There is no revolving door to "swan" through at will, back and forth,
> in regard to God's requirement of obedience. David learned that.

You have the impression I want Christianity on my own terms. You know my
history, I was quite open about it. I became a weak Christian, and then
I had a situation where there were three possible solutions, and totally
left it with God as He willed. The bible says whatever you ask in prayer
it will be given, and if you have faith (belief) as small as a mustard
seed you can move mountains. My prayer was a simple one solution A,
solution B, or no solution. I was happy to accept whichever was right
for me.  He gave me solution B, only to remove it 2 weeks later, which
left no solution. If God knew by doing that it would finally break my
trust in God, then why?  Does He not say a bruised wick he won't extinquish?


> 3) David finally put aside the thoughts of his heart as reality and
> allowed God to place His thoughts as reality in David's heart; Rev_3:20
> Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and
> open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with
> me.

I went through this both this year and last, I laid everything before
God and said show me the way back to you. I was ready to give up
everything if He was just to come back into my life.    I even
specifically quoted the verse you just have, saying Jesus, come into my
life and restore my faith in you.The result?  Nothing, Nil. Nada.


> You see God working in that way all through the Bible. That is what you
> must do: allow Him to substitute your thoughts for what He says—your
> fiction for His truth.

What fiction is that then?  If you're a believer, and your life revolves
round God, surely that is being a Christian?


> 3) Praise the Lord, it is not about your "wrongness" with God, adultery,
> stealing, lying, selfishness, and/or what your particular bent is. It is
> about your willingness to let go of it (e.g., the rich young ruler). But
> if you hold on to your thoughts and ways and feelings, you are not going
> to go anywhere, and neither did David until he agreed to let go of 'his
> will be done (vanity of vanities).'
>
> 4) Why is everyone always speaking about sin all the time, what it is,
> how it is committed, and how not to try and do it? It is not God's focus
> or care. The veil of the temple was rent in twain (access to His
> presence, open); man's sin was dealt with on the cross, once and for all
> —grace for all.

Ok, I get that up to a point, and when I tried to get back to God
earlier this year, I did remove every wrong thing in my life, because I
wanted to show Him how serious I was in being faithful to Him. I
believed once I got that connection back then it woudn't be me as such,
but Christ in me


> 5) What remains, then? Certainly not trying to raise yourself up in your
> sin state to righteousness, that is for sure; you can't. What remains is
> to find His will in your daily life and do it. Then He will remove that
> "wrongness (like David's wrongness)" in your heart with the washing of
> His will. In David's case (pre-crucifixion), in readiness for the
> Messiah to come, but for us, He is here now.

That's exactly what I've been saying, and you dismissed it. It is
impossible for a Christian to be righteous in themselves.  It is Jesus
paying the penalty that allows God to see us as righteous.



> Isaiah 1:18  Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:
> though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though
> they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
>
> God is saying I can clean you up, create a new heart in you, and renew a
> right spirit in you, but He needs your God-given free will obedience—to
> do as you are told—no part-time, swinging-door, half-baked, lukewarm
> unbelieverism...

Here we go again!  I left Christianity. I came back 10 years later.
After the incident with my eyes I tried to struggle on but the
connection I had previously was broken. Without God (even if it was me
and God was in reality there) I couldn't carry on.  I came back again 8
years later IN MY OWN STRENGTH. I left 6 months later because God wasn't
there.  That was 15 years ago. If it was half baked, lukewarm
unbelieverism I would just carried on being a Christian, avoiding the
bad stuff as much as possible and become a pew sitter at church. That
isn't Christianity in my eyes.


> John 2:5  His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto
> you, do it.
>
> Come as a little child. Did you ever do everything your mother told you?
> Pointing to, time to do as your Father says, no mucking around with the
> world and disbelief anymore!
>
> The Lord is not going to reveal His will to you if you are not all in;
> all in or all out. It is that that stops many because they want their
> own thoughts and ways, at best a mix, a combo, a mutual cake mix of
> their own thoughts and God's thoughts.


Again you are making assumptions about me that I consider not valid.
What I want is for God to touch me in some way that I know is from Him
and then let God sort out whatever needs sorting.   What I don't want to
do is go through the motions and fail again.  Been there, done that. got
the tee shirt.

> No! That is not going to happen! God is not by any measure a construct
> of man's approval. Bottom line: it is His way or the highway.
>
> 6) Now what is confusing about any of that, other than the impetus to
> find God's will in your daily life and do it, which will take prayer and
> heart, and prayer and heart, and prayer and heart, believing in Him and
> believing in Him to NOT lead you to destruction. To follow Him out of
> Egypt and into the desert for a season and on and into the promised
> land, which is Himself. "For many are called, but few are chosen," which
> means to me, few choose.

The verse doesn't say few choose, it says few are chosen. If the teacher
says who wants to write on the blackboard, I can say me.  I choose to do
that.  If the teacher says, John, I have picked you to write on the
blackboard, then I have been chosen.

> 7) 7, the number of God, so they say. All in or all out.

On 30/04/2025 01:23, John wrote:

> Despite you saying I only had man's Christianity, that is exactly what
> happened when I first became a Christian, and that happened in an
> instant. My sins were washed away, I no longer wanted to sin.

Whether that is a natural response to starting out on a new life (which
then gradually wears off) or a divine provision, the point is that it
doesn't last. God wants you to grow and develop as a Christian and that
means learning to cope with temptation. (After all, Eve's sin was
because she had no experience of temptation and deception.) The only way
we can do that is by being confronted with temptation and learning -
possibly after repeated failures - to say "No".

There is a reason why the Lord's Prayer includes the words, "lead us not
into temptation".

Think of a physiotherapist (I mean a real one, not the frauds who
currently masquerade as such in hospitals). If he/she has a patient who
has a weak leg, she will not encourage him to favour that leg and avoid
any weight on it; rather she will concentrate on that leg, give him
exercises for it, put him in situations where he is forced to use it,
and so on. It's the only way to strengthen the weak leg and restore it
to normal.

In the same way, suppose you have a problem with honesty. One solution
would be for God to keep you well away from any contact with money - but
that will not help you overcome the sin. Instead God will put you in
situations where your honesty is tested - small at first but gradually
increasing as you learn to be honest until finally you can handle being
governor of the Bank of England with the nation's wealth safe in your hands.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

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On 30/04/2025 07:19, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 30/04/2025 01:23, John wrote:

> In the same way, suppose you have a problem with honesty. One solution
> would be for God to keep you well away from any contact with money - but
> that will not help you overcome the sin. Instead God will put you in
> situations where your honesty is tested - small at first but gradually
> increasing as you learn to be honest until finally you can handle being
> governor of the Bank of England with the nation's wealth safe in your
> hands.

First of all, thank you the advice I've snipped, but this made me smile,
for all the wrong reasons.

After I became a weaker Christian, I got a job in a flooring
wholesalers, and part of my job was to visit the supervisors cubbyhole
on a regular basis. His wall was adorned with pictures of full frontal
nudes.

I couldn't resist having a peek whilst I was in there, so there was a
fair bit of repenting going on.  I'm not sure the answer would have been
to confront me with more nudes to ogle at!!  The problem ceased when I
left that job.

On 30/04/2025 13:34, John wrote:

> I couldn't resist having a peek whilst I was in there, so there was a
> fair bit of repenting going on.  I'm not sure the answer would have been
> to confront me with more nudes to ogle at!!  The problem ceased when I
> left that job.

This is where all those old monks lost the plot. They rushed off into
the desert to escape the world, never thinking that where there is no
temptation, there is no victory over temptation either!

I am reminded of the story of one of these monks who, walking along a
road one day, spots a company of God's handmaids (aka nuns) coming
towards him. He immediately leaves the road and stands with his back to
them, waiting for them to pass, less he glimpse a forbidden female form
and be tempted.

As he stood there, the party of nuns came up to him and the head nun
remarked quietly, "My son, if you were a true monk, you would not have
looked closely enough to know that we were women!"

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 1/05/2025 3:44 am, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 30/04/2025 13:34, John wrote:
>
>> I couldn't resist having a peek whilst I was in there, so there was a
>> fair bit of repenting going on.  I'm not sure the answer would have
>> been to confront me with more nudes to ogle at!!  The problem ceased
>> when I left that job.
>
> This is where all those old monks lost the plot. They rushed off into
> the desert to escape the world, never thinking that where there is no
> temptation, there is no victory over temptation either!
>
> I am reminded of the story of one of these monks who, walking along a
> road one day, spots a company of God's handmaids (aka nuns) coming
> towards him. He immediately leaves the road and stands with his back to
> them, waiting for them to pass, less he glimpse a forbidden female form
> and be tempted.
>
> As he stood there, the party of nuns came up to him and the head nun
> remarked quietly, "My son, if you were a true monk, you would not have
> looked closely enough to know that we were women!"

Ha! Touché.

Hence the vanity of striving in the flesh to be righteous.



Mike

--
God is God in all His Being. All the glory is His, for He is all glory.

It is going round and round, John. Just one thing; the most important thing.

John wrote:
> If I did something wrong, eg I had a fall out with my future mother in
> law just before I got married, as my fiancee was upset that her mum was
> takiung over in organising our wedding plans. As she left the house we
> live in I was quite sharp with her. Mulling it over a few days later,
> quite indignantly, I "heard" an inner voice saying "Go and apologise"
> which I did during my lunch hour the same day.

> Now I believe that was the Holy Spirit convicting me I was wrong, I
> didn't believe I was wrong until I "heard" that, but when I did, I knew
> I had to put it right.  Is that not being obedient to God?

Your God 'gave-us conscience' bothered you, so you responded according
to your need to placate it. However, and it is a big however, if you
believed it was God, then in God's eyes it is accounted to Him as you
having done His will.

That is very important because God is always looking for a way to make
everything right; it is His Nature. Praise the Lord.

So, yes. You were obedient to what was right, and all "right" comes from
Him. And what have I said a gzillion times? "God is God in all His
Being. All the glory is His, for He is all glory."

So, you owe all the glory to Him for bothering to give you a
'gave-us-conscience' that can recognise what is right. Do you get that?
If you take any for yourself, you are denying Him His glory and
worshipping yourself.

So, do you understand this now...?

"But remember this: always, absolutely always, all the glory is the
Lord's and His alone, and anyone who takes any credit for anything, you
know, instantly, he is not what he pretends to be and is a false prophet."

..if you do, it will open your eyes and ears to much that goes on.

Okay, now, I have been meditating about this because it is the thrust of
your inquiry and the major issue in past discussion with Mohammed: what
is it to hear God speak? To describe His voice, or rather how He speaks,
is another story, like describing the colour blue.

First off, to our Bible or someone will panic; the Bible talks about a
still small voice, so...God...has...a...voice, and so can be heard. Fact
check—tick.

So, in the quiet of the heart, how do you hear God speak? Well, it is a
bit like this and a bit like that, and both at the same time. "This" is
like seeing your mother in a crowd and knowing it is her. "That" is like
anticipating what a person is going to say because you know them. "This
and that" is understanding that it is His voice in your heart, not the
head (intellectualism—no, Bible—no, because the Bible is written words).

Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness...

So, understanding in the heart, Job as an example. He is clueless about
what is going on, but he hears God? What's with that?

Job 42:2  I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can
be withholden from thee.

Is he talking to himself? Is he relating to his God 'gave-us conscience'
like you with regard to your mother-in-law?' What matters is God is
listening very, very intently because it very, very muchly matters to
Him (the grammar is intended). Who'd have thought our conscience is the
means by which we "speak" to God? It is the brain (soul, if you like) of
our hearts/spirits.

But Job went from being unaware of God's voice in his conscience to
being aware of God's voice in His conscience.

God presses Job more in his unaware conscience…

Job 42:4  Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee,
and declare thou unto me.

And now, Job, finally, with his aware conscience…

Job 42:5  I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine
eye seeth thee.

Job 42:6  Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

See how you go with that.

By the way, Saul/Paul went through the same process on the road to
Damascus, Peter also in the cock crow, and King David and Nathan, "Thou
art the man," and Isaiah and his unclean lips, and on and on.

The Lord never stops amazing me.



Mike


--
God is God in all His Being. All the glory is His, for He is all glory.

On 01/05/2025 00:53, In the Name of Jesus wrote:
> It is going round and round, John. Just one thing; the most important
> thing.
>
> John wrote:
>> If I did something wrong, eg I had a fall out with my future mother in
>> law just before I got married, as my fiancee was upset that her mum
>> was takiung over in organising our wedding plans. As she left the
>> house we live in I was quite sharp with her. Mulling it over a few
>> days later, quite indignantly, I "heard" an inner voice saying "Go and
>> apologise" which I did during my lunch hour the same day.
>
>> Now I believe that was the Holy Spirit convicting me I was wrong, I
>> didn't believe I was wrong until I "heard" that, but when I did, I
>> knew I had to put it right.  Is that not being obedient to God?
>
> Your God 'gave-us conscience' bothered you, so you responded according
> to your need to placate it. However, and it is a big however, if you
> believed it was God, then in God's eyes it is accounted to Him as you
> having done His will.

I would agree with you if, after having said harsh words, I thought hmm
maybe I was too harsh, I should go and sort it out.  However I believed
my actions were right but the inner voice said otherwise, why would that
not be the Holy Spirit?

> That is very important because God is always looking for a way to make
> everything right; it is His Nature. Praise the Lord.
>
> So, yes. You were obedient to what was right, and all "right" comes from
> Him. And what have I said a gzillion times? "God is God in all His
> Being. All the glory is His, for He is all glory."
>
> So, you owe all the glory to Him for bothering to give you a 'gave-us-
> conscience' that can recognise what is right. Do you get that? If you
> take any for yourself, you are denying Him His glory and worshipping
> yourself.

So basically it's down to your own conscience, you do what you think is
right with God as your yardstick?


> So, do you understand this now...?
>
> "But remember this: always, absolutely always, all the glory is the
> Lord's and His alone, and anyone who takes any credit for anything, you
> know, instantly, he is not what he pretends to be and is a false prophet."

In Christian terms certainly, and I have always done that.  Even now, if
i can do someone a good turn I will do, not to gain credance, but just
helping someone if I have the skills and they don't.


> ..if you do, it will open your eyes and ears to much that goes on.
>
> Okay, now, I have been meditating about this because it is the thrust of
> your inquiry and the major issue in past discussion with Mohammed: what
> is it to hear God speak? To describe His voice, or rather how He speaks,
> is another story, like describing the colour blue.
>
> First off, to our Bible or someone will panic; the Bible talks about a
> still small voice, so...God...has...a...voice, and so can be heard. Fact
> check—tick.
>
> So, in the quiet of the heart, how do you hear God speak? Well, it is a
> bit like this and a bit like that, and both at the same time. "This" is
> like seeing your mother in a crowd and knowing it is her. "That" is like
> anticipating what a person is going to say because you know them. "This
> and that" is understanding that it is His voice in your heart, not the
> head (intellectualism—no, Bible—no, because the Bible is written words).
>
> Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness...
>
> So, understanding in the heart, Job as an example. He is clueless about
> what is going on, but he hears God? What's with that?
>
> Job 42:2  I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can
> be withholden from thee.
>
> Is he talking to himself? Is he relating to his God 'gave-us conscience'
> like you with regard to your mother-in-law?' What matters is God is
> listening very, very intently because it very, very muchly matters to
> Him (the grammar is intended). Who'd have thought our conscience is the
> means by which we "speak" to God? It is the brain (soul, if you like) of
> our hearts/spirits.
>
> But Job went from being unaware of God's voice in his conscience to
> being aware of God's voice in His conscience.
>
> God presses Job more in his unaware conscience…
>
> Job 42:4  Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee,
> and declare thou unto me.
>
> And now, Job, finally, with his aware conscience…

> Job 42:5  I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine > eye seeth thee.

>
> Job 42:6  Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.


Or better still, Job heard God previously, and now saw Him in the
whirlwind.  Job was very much a man for God, and I believe it was direct
communication, not just conscienceness


> See how you go with that.

With respect, it sounds more new age than Christianity.  For me, when
you become a Christian, you become a new creation. Your soul is cleansed
and you live your life for Him nad not for yourself.  I've just finished
reading Acts and it's quite powerful how God was with them as they
spread the Gospel, and the signs and wonders which accompanied them.


> By the way, Saul/Paul went through the same process on the road to
> Damascus, Peter also in the cock crow, and King David and Nathan, "Thou
> art the man," and Isaiah and his unclean lips, and on and on.
>
> The Lord never stops amazing me.

On 2/05/2025 8:50 am, John wrote:
> On 01/05/2025 00:53, In the Name of Jesus wrote:
>> It is going round and round, John. Just one thing; the most important
>> thing.
>>
>> John wrote:
>>> If I did something wrong, eg I had a fall out with my future mother
>>> in law just before I got married, as my fiancee was upset that her
>>> mum was takiung over in organising our wedding plans. As she left the
>>> house we live in I was quite sharp with her. Mulling it over a few
>>> days later, quite indignantly, I "heard" an inner voice saying "Go
>>> and apologise" which I did during my lunch hour the same day.
>>
>>> Now I believe that was the Holy Spirit convicting me I was wrong, I
>>> didn't believe I was wrong until I "heard" that, but when I did, I
>>> knew I had to put it right.  Is that not being obedient to God?
>>
>> Your God 'gave-us conscience' bothered you, so you responded according
>> to your need to placate it. However, and it is a big however, if you
>> believed it was God, then in God's eyes it is accounted to Him as you
>> having done His will.
>
> I would agree with you if, after having said harsh words, I thought hmm
> maybe I was too harsh, I should go and sort it out.  However I believed
> my actions were right but the inner voice said otherwise, why would that
> not be the Holy Spirit?

Because you wouldn't be asking the question.


>> That is very important because God is always looking for a way to make
>> everything right; it is His Nature. Praise the Lord.
>>
>> So, yes. You were obedient to what was right, and all "right" comes
>> from Him. And what have I said a gzillion times? "God is God in all
>> His Being. All the glory is His, for He is all glory."
>>
>> So, you owe all the glory to Him for bothering to give you a 'gave-us-
>> conscience' that can recognise what is right. Do you get that? If you
>> take any for yourself, you are denying Him His glory and worshipping
>> yourself.
>
> So basically it's down to your own conscience, you do what you think is
> right with God as your yardstick?

"All the glory is His, for He is all glory."

It is down to Him and you responding to His prompting in your conscience.

For example, Paul finally submitted...

Act_9:5  And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus
whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Not the humanistic "ear tickles."


>> So, do you understand this now...?
>>
>> "But remember this: always, absolutely always, all the glory is the
>> Lord's and His alone, and anyone who takes any credit for anything, you
>> know, instantly, he is not what he pretends to be and is a false
>> prophet."
>
> In Christian terms certainly, and I have always done that.  Even now, if
> i can do someone a good turn I will do, not to gain credance, but just
> helping someone if I have the skills and they don't.

You are not hearing. Nothing of myself (Mike) is helping anyone or can
help anyone; that is simply the drunken mindset of a fallen, deceived,
and deluded world.

Hear what it says...

"All the glory is His, for He is all glory."

You can't worship God if you give any credit to yourself.

You don't deserve even the crumbs that the dogs eat from the Master's
table because the dogs don't know any better; you do.

That is the purpose of a God-given conscience, to understand the truth.

>> ..if you do, it will open your eyes and ears to much that goes on.
>>
>> Okay, now, I have been meditating about this because it is the thrust
>> of your inquiry and the major issue in past discussion with Mohammed:
>> what is it to hear God speak? To describe His voice, or rather how He
>> speaks, is another story, like describing the colour blue.
>>
>> First off, to our Bible or someone will panic; the Bible talks about a
>> still small voice, so...God...has...a...voice, and so can be heard.
>> Fact check—tick.
>>
>> So, in the quiet of the heart, how do you hear God speak? Well, it is
>> a bit like this and a bit like that, and both at the same time. "This"
>> is like seeing your mother in a crowd and knowing it is her. "That" is
>> like anticipating what a person is going to say because you know them.
>> "This and that" is understanding that it is His voice in your heart,
>> not the head (intellectualism—no, Bible—no, because the Bible is
>> written words).
>>
>> Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness...
>>
>> So, understanding in the heart, Job as an example. He is clueless
>> about what is going on, but he hears God? What's with that?
>>
>> Job 42:2  I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought
>> can be withholden from thee.
>>
>> Is he talking to himself? Is he relating to his God 'gave-us
>> conscience' like you with regard to your mother-in-law?' What matters
>> is God is listening very, very intently because it very, very muchly
>> matters to Him (the grammar is intended). Who'd have thought our
>> conscience is the means by which we "speak" to God? It is the brain
>> (soul, if you like) of our hearts/spirits.
>>
>> But Job went from being unaware of God's voice in his conscience to
>> being aware of God's voice in His conscience.
>>
>> God presses Job more in his unaware conscience…
>>
>> Job 42:4  Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of
>> thee, and declare thou unto me.
>>
>> And now, Job, finally, with his aware conscience…
>
>> Job 42:5  I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine
>> > eye seeth thee.
>
>>
>> Job 42:6  Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.


> Or better still, Job heard God previously, and now saw Him in the
> whirlwind.  Job was very much a man for God, and I believe it was direct
> communication, not just conscienceness

No sinner has ever been a man very much for God. He has to enter the
crucible (chastening, if you like) of God and come out the other side
for that (which Job did in the end).

Job realised that he didn't even deserve the crumbs that the dogs eat
from the Master's table because the dogs don't know any better; we do.

Do you think Job abhorred myself, and repented in dust and ashes for
nothing?

Communication with God through the conscience; that is the purpose of a
God-given conscience, to understand the truth of God, to hear and
understand Him.

How do I know that fact? The Lord brought me to the same core point of
contact with Him as He did with Job; face to face with reality.

"All the glory is His, for He is all glory."


>> See how you go with that.
>
> With respect, it sounds more new age than Christianity.  For me, when
> you become a Christian, you become a new creation. Your soul is cleansed
> and you live your life for Him nad not for yourself.  I've just finished
> reading Acts and it's quite powerful how God was with them as they
> spread the Gospel, and the signs and wonders which accompanied them.

You are not prepared to listen to anything other than "John's way." You
want the comfortable "Christianity of man," and frankly, my calling,
even though it is unavoidable to a large extent, is not to be
"endlessly" run round and round and round.

If you only respond to the 'tickling of your ears' to reserve a piece of
glory for yourself, then you'll have to talk to someone else. There are
many that will accommodate.


Mike wrote:
 >> By the way, Saul/Paul went through the same process on the road to
 >> Damascus, Peter also in the cock crow, and King David and Nathan,
 >> "Thou art the man," and Isaiah and his unclean lips, and on and on.
 >>
 >> The Lord never stops amazing me.


Mike

--
God is God in all His Being. All the glory is His, for He is all glory.

On 02/05/2025 01:24, In the Name of Jesus wrote:
> On 2/05/2025 8:50 am, John wrote:

>>> So, understanding in the heart, Job as an example. He is clueless
>>> about what is going on, but he hears God? What's with that?
>>>
>>> Job 42:2  I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought
>>> can be withholden from thee.
>>>
>>> Is he talking to himself? Is he relating to his God 'gave-us
>>> conscience' like you with regard to your mother-in-law?' What matters
>>> is God is listening very, very intently because it very, very muchly
>>> matters to Him (the grammar is intended). Who'd have thought our
>>> conscience is the means by which we "speak" to God? It is the brain
>>> (soul, if you like) of our hearts/spirits.
>>>
>>> But Job went from being unaware of God's voice in his conscience to
>>> being aware of God's voice in His conscience.
>>>
>>> God presses Job more in his unaware conscience…
>>>
>>> Job 42:4  Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of
>>> thee, and declare thou unto me.
>>>
>>> And now, Job, finally, with his aware conscience…
>>
>>> Job 42:5  I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now
>>> mine > eye seeth thee.
>>
>>>
>>> Job 42:6  Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
>
>
>> Or better still, Job heard God previously, and now saw Him in the
>> whirlwind.  Job was very much a man for God, and I believe it was
>> direct communication, not just conscienceness
>
> No sinner has ever been a man very much for God. He has to enter the
> crucible (chastening, if you like) of God and come out the other side
> for that (which Job did in the end).
>
> Job realised that he didn't even deserve the crumbs that the dogs eat
> from the Master's table because the dogs don't know any better; we do.
>
> Do you think Job abhorred myself, and repented in dust and ashes for
> nothing?

I would suggest reading the beginning of Job

Verse 1  There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that
man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil.

It was satan who begged God to let Job be tested, not God believing Job
wasn't good enough.

Verse 8  And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant
Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright
man, who fears God and turns away from evil?”



>> With respect, it sounds more new age than Christianity.  For me, when
>> you become a Christian, you become a new creation. Your soul is
>> cleansed and you live your life for Him nad not for yourself.  I've
>> just finished reading Acts and it's quite powerful how God was with
>> them as they spread the Gospel, and the signs and wonders which
>> accompanied them.
>
> You are not prepared to listen to anything other than "John's way." You
> want the comfortable "Christianity of man," and frankly, my calling,
> even though it is unavoidable to a large extent, is not to be
> "endlessly" run round and round and round.
>
> If you only respond to the 'tickling of your ears' to reserve a piece of
> glory for yourself, then you'll have to talk to someone else. There are
> many that will accommodate.

Ah bless.

Perhaps a couple of verses for you to consider, and more so with
Mohammad than me, because the way you handled his challenges was nothing
short of despicable, and if I had been a moderator you would have been
sanctioned.

but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared
to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that
is in you; *yet do it with gentleness and respect*  1 Peter 3:15 ESV

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness,
goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things
there is no law.    Galations 5:22-23  ESV

It's probably pointless me presenting the other two issues, which were
about us being spirit beings and God splitting himself in two to become
Jesus.   Ah well never mind eh. pretty sure it was boll...  oops
sorry... Pretty sure it was rubbbish.

But anyway, cheers for the convo, always love a good debate me.

On 2/05/2025 9:06 pm, John wrote:
> On 02/05/2025 01:24, In the Name of Jesus wrote:
>> On 2/05/2025 8:50 am, John wrote:
>
>>>> So, understanding in the heart, Job as an example. He is clueless
>>>> about what is going on, but he hears God? What's with that?
>>>>
>>>> Job 42:2  I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought
>>>> can be withholden from thee.
>>>>
>>>> Is he talking to himself? Is he relating to his God 'gave-us
>>>> conscience' like you with regard to your mother-in-law?' What
>>>> matters is God is listening very, very intently because it very,
>>>> very muchly matters to Him (the grammar is intended). Who'd have
>>>> thought our conscience is the means by which we "speak" to God? It
>>>> is the brain (soul, if you like) of our hearts/spirits.
>>>>
>>>> But Job went from being unaware of God's voice in his conscience to
>>>> being aware of God's voice in His conscience.
>>>>
>>>> God presses Job more in his unaware conscience…
>>>>
>>>> Job 42:4  Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of
>>>> thee, and declare thou unto me.
>>>>
>>>> And now, Job, finally, with his aware conscience…
>>>
>>>> Job 42:5  I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now
>>>> mine > eye seeth thee.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Job 42:6  Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
>>
>>
>>> Or better still, Job heard God previously, and now saw Him in the
>>> whirlwind.  Job was very much a man for God, and I believe it was
>>> direct communication, not just conscienceness
>>
>> No sinner has ever been a man very much for God. He has to enter the
>> crucible (chastening, if you like) of God and come out the other side
>> for that (which Job did in the end).
>>
>> Job realised that he didn't even deserve the crumbs that the dogs eat
>> from the Master's table because the dogs don't know any better; we do.
>>
>> Do you think Job abhorred myself, and repented in dust and ashes for
>> nothing?
>
> I would suggest reading the beginning of Job

You don't have the understanding.


>
> Verse 1  There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that
> man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from
> evil.
>
> It was satan who begged God to let Job be tested, not God believing Job
> wasn't good enough.
>
> Verse 8  And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant
> Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright
> man, who fears God and turns away from evil?”

You don't have the understanding.

God knew what was to come. He knew Job would come through the fire and
be purged of his "John pigheaded stubborn self-righteousness."


>>> With respect, it sounds more new age than Christianity.  For me, when
>>> you become a Christian, you become a new creation. Your soul is
>>> cleansed and you live your life for Him nad not for yourself.  I've
>>> just finished reading Acts and it's quite powerful how God was with
>>> them as they spread the Gospel, and the signs and wonders which
>>> accompanied them.
>>
>> You are not prepared to listen to anything other than "John's way."
>> You want the comfortable "Christianity of man," and frankly, my
>> calling, even though it is unavoidable to a large extent, is not to be
>> "endlessly" run round and round and round.
>>
>> If you only respond to the 'tickling of your ears' to reserve a piece
>> of glory for yourself, then you'll have to talk to someone else. There
>> are many that will accommodate.
>
> Ah bless.
>
> Perhaps a couple of verses for you to consider, and more so with
> Mohammad than me, because the way you handled his challenges was nothing
> short of despicable, and if I had been a moderator you would have been
> sanctioned.

I am the one who has been treated despicably.

You'll see that in what is to come.


> but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared
> to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that
> is in you; *yet do it with gentleness and respect*  1 Peter 3:15 ESV
>
> But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness,
> goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things
> there is no law.    Galations 5:22-23  ESV
>
> It's probably pointless me presenting the other two issues, which were
> about us being spirit beings and God splitting himself in two to become
> Jesus.   Ah well never mind eh. pretty sure it was boll...  oops
> sorry... Pretty sure it was rubbbish.

If you had "gentleness and respect" you would have gone somewhere, but
resistance is met with resistance.

God did not "split" and become two! He placed separation in Himself in
His great grace to receive a "cleansed of all unrighteousness" people to
call His own.

The Red Sea always remained One Red Sea! One Lord, One God.

The reason you can perceive that is BECAUSE you are a spirit being
living in a corrupted body of death. And upon the final departure of
that "body of death," that spirit goes on to an incorruptible body for
those who love Him and His appearing, and for those who love themselves,
some place else out of the way.

> But anyway, cheers for the convo, always love a good debate me.

That is the trouble; it wasn't a debate. I'll now follow your glorious
and righteous lead and sanction myself. This place is not a place for
me, but for you and Mohammed to try and set them and yourselves right.

It was certainly an "experience" being here. Praise the Lord.





Mike


--
God is God in all His Being. All the glory is His, for He is all glory.