🚀 go-pugleaf

On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:46:30 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wibbled:
>https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/12/london-underground-power-cut-crippl
>es-tube-delays/
>
>4:27pm
>More London Tube and rail lines affected by power outages
>The effects of the power outage appear to be spreading across the Tube
>network.

First heathrow now this. The power supply resilience in this country seems to
be somewhere between dreadful and non existent.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/12/london-underground-power-cut-cripples-tube-delays/
>
> 4:27pm
> More London Tube and rail lines affected by power outages
> The effects of the power outage appear to be spreading across the Tube
> network.
>
> Delays are now affecting the Piccadilly Line between Acton Town and the
> Heathrow stations at the line’s western end. The Waterloo and City Line,
> which runs from Bank to Waterloo, has also been suspended.
>
> In addition, the Overground’s Weaver Line - formerly the Lea Valley lines
> between Liverpool Street, Cheshunt and Chingford station in Essex - has
> been suspended because of the power failure.
>
> The Overground’s Mildmay line - known by Londoners as the North London Line
> prior to Sir Sadiq Khan’s diversity-focused rebrand - has no service
> between Highbury & Islington and Stratford due to the electricity failure.
>
> TfL has been asked whether another set of power failures have occurred,
> separately from the original outage at around 2.30pm.
>
> Mainline rail services are facing severe disruption from London LIverpool
> Street this evening thanks to a lineside fire between Clapton and Tottenham
> Hale.
>
> 4:17pm
> Passengers turned away from services
> Passengers were turned away from Elizabeth line services after a power cut
> at around 2.30pm in south-west London.
>
> Alison Hendry, 33, and Joseph Richardson, 37, came on the Heathrow Express
> to Paddington after flying from Glasgow earlier on Monday.
>
> Ms Hendry said: “It’s a bit annoying they only told us when we got here. We
> walked all the way across the station, we have to go all the way back.”
>
> The pair carried suitcases from their travels and hope to reach Walthamstow
> in time for a comedy show on Monday evening.
>
> Mr Richardson said: “It doesn’t even bother me. But if I was in a rush, it
> would.”
>
> 4:12pm
> Commuters vent frustration on social media
> Commuters took to social media to vent their frustration on X, formerly
> known as Twitter.
>
> Writing on the platform, one user wrote: “How many times will I get to an
> Elizabeth line station just to hear the service has been suspended as soon
> as I walk in.”
>
> Another wrote: “Elizabeth line shambles again, happens all too frequently.
> Deeply inconvenient.”
>
> A third X user commented: “Power cuts everywhere nowadays and it’s getting
> worse.”
>
> 4:06pm
> Elizabeth Line reopens
> The Elizabeth Line has now reopened following its earlier suspension after
> a power failure just before 2.30pm.
>
> Services across the Elizabeth line may still be cancelled or “delayed by up
> to 50 minutes”, National Rail Enquiries said, while TfL now says the line
> has “severe delays” across its entire length.
>
> Disruption is currently expected until 5.30pm but that time may be extended
> as the service recovers.
>
> The Bakerloo line remains suspended for its entire length along with the
> Waterloo and City Line.
>
> The Jubilee Line is part suspended between London Bridge and Finchley Road,
> while there are “minor delays” on the Northern line.
>
> Separately, the Overground’s Suffragette line - formerly the Goblin, or
> Gospel Oak to Barking route - is suspended because of a fire near a
> station.
>
> 4:04pm
> TfL ‘getting things back up and running again’
> TfL is in the process of “getting things back up and running again”.
>
> The Telegraph understands that power has been restored to the affected
> lines but technicians are carrying out safety checks before re-opening the
> affected lines and stations again.
>
> It comes as power was also lost to some businesses near Regent Street in
> central London.
>
> UK Power Networks said on its website that the “unplanned power cut” was
> because of a fault on “a piece of our electrical equipment” at 2.20pm –
> about the same time that the Tube suffered its power “blip”.
>
> “Hundreds” of businesses south of Oxford Street were also affected, with
> power not set to be restored until after 6pm, the Evening Standard
> reported.
>
> 4:01pm
> Outage took place in a ‘matter of minutes’
> A spokesman for TfL said there was an outage in south-west London for “a
> matter of minutes” and “everything shut down” owing to a “National Grid
> issue”.
>
> He added: “When the power goes out the trains will have stopped, obviously,
> there’s emergency power on trains and stations so everything wouldn’t have
> gone completely black, if you were on there, but the trains would have
> stopped and we would have cleared some stations because there’s no
> electricity it might not necessarily be safe for them to be open ... some
> people would have probably been stuck in a tunnel for a little bit of
> time.”
>
> 3:59pm
> Similarities to Spanish power cut
> The power “blip” suggests some similarities with the nationwide power
> outage that struck Spain last month.
>
> In that case, the nation’s electricity grid collapsed after what is
> believed to have been a sudden grid frequency change outside normal
> tolerances. This triggered automatic safety systems which disconnected all
> of its power stations.
>
> Such changes can be caused by a lack of “spinning mass” electricity
> generation.
>
> In Spain’s case, this came about because the country’s grid is heavily
> reliant on solar panels, which do not use the large spinning generators
> found in nuclear or gas-fired power stations.
>
> 3:58pm
> Cause of ‘blip’ not yet known
> The cause of the power “blip” was not yet known but was believed to lie
> within National Grid’s infrastructure, an energy industry source said.
>
> Power from the National Grid is sent to regional organisations known as
> distribution network operators (DNOs).
>
> These organisations transform the power down to lower, safer voltages ready
> for distribution to businesses such as TfL and consumers.
>
> UK Power Networks, the DNO for London, confirmed to The Telegraph that
> although it was aware of the “blip”, it was not caused by UKPN equipment.
>

There doesn’t appear to have been any major excursion of frequency, so not
like the Spanish issue.

https://gridwatch.co.uk/frequency

My guess is more poorly maintained sweated asset equipment.

<Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:46:30 GMT
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wibbled:
>> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/12/london-underground-power-cut-crippl
>> es-tube-delays/
>>
>> 4:27pm
>> More London Tube and rail lines affected by power outages
>> The effects of the power outage appear to be spreading across the Tube
>> network.
>
> First heathrow now this. The power supply resilience in this country seems to
> be somewhere between dreadful and non existent.

This seems to be a small scale version of the recent Spanish meltdown.

<Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:46:30 GMT
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wibbled:
>> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/12/london-underground-power-cut-crippl
>> es-tube-delays/
>>
>> 4:27pm
>> More London Tube and rail lines affected by power outages
>> The effects of the power outage appear to be spreading across the Tube
>> network.
>
> First heathrow now this. The power supply resilience in this country seems to
> be somewhere between dreadful and non existent.
>
>
Put your distribution assets in the hands of monopoly private operators
together with an ineffective regulator and you get this. Just like the
water industry. The Heathrow transformer that caught fire was 57 years old.

tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 3:59pm
>>> Similarities to Spanish power cut
>>> The power “blip” suggests some similarities with the nationwide power
>>> outage that struck Spain last month.
>>>
>>> In that case, the nation’s electricity grid collapsed after what is
>>> believed to have been a sudden grid frequency change outside normal
>>> tolerances. This triggered automatic safety systems which disconnected all
>>> of its power stations.
>>>
>>> Such changes can be caused by a lack of “spinning mass” electricity
>>> generation.
>>>
>>> In Spain’s case, this came about because the country’s grid is heavily
>>> reliant on solar panels, which do not use the large spinning generators
>>> found in nuclear or gas-fired power stations.
>>>
>>> 3:58pm
>>> Cause of ‘blip’ not yet known
>>> The cause of the power “blip” was not yet known but was believed to lie
>>> within National Grid’s infrastructure, an energy industry source said.
>>>
>>> Power from the National Grid is sent to regional organisations known as
>>> distribution network operators (DNOs).
>>>
>>> These organisations transform the power down to lower, safer voltages ready
>>> for distribution to businesses such as TfL and consumers.
>>>
>>> UK Power Networks, the DNO for London, confirmed to The Telegraph that
>>> although it was aware of the “blip”, it was not caused by UKPN equipment.
>>>
>>
>> There doesn’t appear to have been any major excursion of frequency, so not
>> like the Spanish issue.
>>
>> https://gridwatch.co.uk/frequency
>>
>> My guess is more poorly maintained sweated asset equipment.
>>
>
> Probably not a lot to do with it but theres been a lot of lightning
> activity over London today and a bit at the time of posting..
>
> https://www.lightningmaps.org/?lang=en#google_vignette

Yes, there’s lots of rumbling thunder over London right now, so there may
well have been a lightning strike on TfL power equipment.

>> 3:59pm
>> Similarities to Spanish power cut
>> The power “blip” suggests some similarities with the nationwide power
>> outage that struck Spain last month.
>>
>> In that case, the nation’s electricity grid collapsed after what is
>> believed to have been a sudden grid frequency change outside normal
>> tolerances. This triggered automatic safety systems which disconnected all
>> of its power stations.
>>
>> Such changes can be caused by a lack of “spinning mass” electricity
>> generation.
>>
>> In Spain’s case, this came about because the country’s grid is heavily
>> reliant on solar panels, which do not use the large spinning generators
>> found in nuclear or gas-fired power stations.
>>
>> 3:58pm
>> Cause of ‘blip’ not yet known
>> The cause of the power “blip” was not yet known but was believed to lie
>> within National Grid’s infrastructure, an energy industry source said.
>>
>> Power from the National Grid is sent to regional organisations known as
>> distribution network operators (DNOs).
>>
>> These organisations transform the power down to lower, safer voltages ready
>> for distribution to businesses such as TfL and consumers.
>>
>> UK Power Networks, the DNO for London, confirmed to The Telegraph that
>> although it was aware of the “blip”, it was not caused by UKPN equipment.
>>
>
>There doesn’t appear to have been any major excursion of frequency, so not
>like the Spanish issue.
>
>https://gridwatch.co.uk/frequency
>
>My guess is more poorly maintained sweated asset equipment.
>

Probably not a lot to do with it but theres been a lot of lightning
activity over London today and a bit at the time of posting..

https://www.lightningmaps.org/?lang=en#google_vignette
--
Tony Sayer


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:59:36 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wibbled:
><Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org> wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:46:30 GMT
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wibbled:
>>>
>https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/12/london-underground-power-cut-crippl
>
>>> es-tube-delays/
>>>
>>> 4:27pm
>>> More London Tube and rail lines affected by power outages
>>> The effects of the power outage appear to be spreading across the Tube
>>> network.
>>
>> First heathrow now this. The power supply resilience in this country seems
>to
>> be somewhere between dreadful and non existent.
>>
>>
>Put your distribution assets in the hands of monopoly private operators
>together with an ineffective regulator and you get this. Just like the
>water industry. The Heathrow transformer that caught fire was 57 years old.

Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas fired
base load stations. Then the fun will start.

On 12/05/2025 16:46, Recliner wrote:
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/12/london-underground-power-cut-cripples-tube-delays/

> The Overground’s Mildmay line - known by Londoners as the North London Line
> prior to Sir Sadiq Khan’s diversity-focused rebrand

Telegraph gotta Telegraph.


--
Arthur Figgis

On 12/05/2025 16:59, Tweed wrote:
> <Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org> wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:46:30 GMT
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wibbled:
>>> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/12/london-underground-power-cut-crippl
>>> es-tube-delays/
>>>
>>> 4:27pm
>>> More London Tube and rail lines affected by power outages
>>> The effects of the power outage appear to be spreading across the Tube
>>> network.
>>
>> First heathrow now this. The power supply resilience in this country seems to
>> be somewhere between dreadful and non existent.
>>
>>
> Put your distribution assets in the hands of monopoly private operators
> together with an ineffective regulator and you get this. Just like the
> water industry. The Heathrow transformer that caught fire was 57 years old.
>
>

Maintenance is for wimps… © Thatcher, M.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 12/05/2025 18:19, Arthur Figgis wrote:
> On 12/05/2025 16:46, Recliner wrote:
>> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/12/london-underground-power-cut-cripples-tube-delays/
>
>> The Overground’s Mildmay line - known by Londoners as the North London
>> Line
>> prior to Sir Sadiq Khan’s diversity-focused rebrand
>
> Telegraph gotta Telegraph.

I expect it's still known as the North London Line since the rebrand.

On 12/05/2025 19:07, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
> On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:59:36 -0000 (UTC)
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wibbled:
>> <Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:46:30 GMT
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wibbled:
>>>>
>> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/12/london-underground-power-cut-crippl
>>
>>>> es-tube-delays/
>>>>
>>>> 4:27pm
>>>> More London Tube and rail lines affected by power outages
>>>> The effects of the power outage appear to be spreading across the Tube
>>>> network.
>>>
>>> First heathrow now this. The power supply resilience in this country seems
>> to
>>> be somewhere between dreadful and non existent.
>>>
>>>
>> Put your distribution assets in the hands of monopoly private operators
>> together with an ineffective regulator and you get this. Just like the
>> water industry. The Heathrow transformer that caught fire was 57 years old.
>
> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas fired
> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>

Do they need to go that far? After all cyber-attacks are cheaper and
have, probably, caused power outages in Spain and the UK, effectively
closed down M&S, Harrods and the Co-op plus many others.

Back to paper and pencil anyone?

--
Colin

On Mon, 12 May 2025 18:07:37 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org
wrote:

>On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:59:36 -0000 (UTC)
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wibbled:
>><Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 12 May 2025 15:46:30 GMT
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wibbled:
>>>>
>>https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/12/london-underground-power-cut-crippl
>>
>>>> es-tube-delays/
>>>>
>>>> 4:27pm
>>>> More London Tube and rail lines affected by power outages
>>>> The effects of the power outage appear to be spreading across the Tube
>>>> network.
>>>
>>> First heathrow now this. The power supply resilience in this country seems
>>to
>>> be somewhere between dreadful and non existent.
>>>
>>>
>>Put your distribution assets in the hands of monopoly private operators
>>together with an ineffective regulator and you get this. Just like the
>>water industry. The Heathrow transformer that caught fire was 57 years old.
>
>Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas fired
>base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>
Maybe someone should tell the nimbies who object to inland windfarms
and coastal cables rather than overhead lines that they are helping
Uncle Vlad?

On Mon, 12 May 2025 16:25:01 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> 3:59pm
>>>> Similarities to Spanish power cut
>>>> The power “blip” suggests some similarities with the nationwide power
>>>> outage that struck Spain last month.
>>>>
>>>> In that case, the nation’s electricity grid collapsed after what is
>>>> believed to have been a sudden grid frequency change outside normal
>>>> tolerances. This triggered automatic safety systems which disconnected all
>>>> of its power stations.
>>>>
>>>> Such changes can be caused by a lack of “spinning mass” electricity
>>>> generation.
>>>>
>>>> In Spain’s case, this came about because the country’s grid is heavily
>>>> reliant on solar panels, which do not use the large spinning generators
>>>> found in nuclear or gas-fired power stations.
>>>>
>>>> 3:58pm
>>>> Cause of ‘blip’ not yet known
>>>> The cause of the power “blip” was not yet known but was believed to lie
>>>> within National Grid’s infrastructure, an energy industry source said.
>>>>
>>>> Power from the National Grid is sent to regional organisations known as
>>>> distribution network operators (DNOs).
>>>>
>>>> These organisations transform the power down to lower, safer voltages ready
>>>> for distribution to businesses such as TfL and consumers.
>>>>
>>>> UK Power Networks, the DNO for London, confirmed to The Telegraph that
>>>> although it was aware of the “blip”, it was not caused by UKPN equipment.
>>>>
>>>
>>> There doesn’t appear to have been any major excursion of frequency, so not
>>> like the Spanish issue.
>>>
>>> https://gridwatch.co.uk/frequency
>>>
>>> My guess is more poorly maintained sweated asset equipment.
>>>
>>
>> Probably not a lot to do with it but theres been a lot of lightning
>> activity over London today and a bit at the time of posting..
>>
>> https://www.lightningmaps.org/?lang=en#google_vignette
>
>Yes, there’s lots of rumbling thunder over London right now, so there may
>well have been a lightning strike on TfL power equipment.
>
It was a long NW-SE string progressing across the northern part of
Greater London so maybe no coincidence.

On Mon, 12 May 2025 19:39:11 +0100, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:

>On 12/05/2025 18:19, Arthur Figgis wrote:
>> On 12/05/2025 16:46, Recliner wrote:
>>> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/12/london-underground-power-cut-cripples-tube-delays/
>>
>>> The Overground’s Mildmay line - known by Londoners as the North London
>>> Line
>>> prior to Sir Sadiq Khan’s diversity-focused rebrand
>>
>> Telegraph gotta Telegraph.
>
>I expect it's still known as the North London Line since the rebrand.
>
Certainly if you aren't carrying passengers.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 12 May 2025 16:25:01 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> 3:59pm
>>>>> Similarities to Spanish power cut
>>>>> The power “blip” suggests some similarities with the nationwide power
>>>>> outage that struck Spain last month.
>>>>>
>>>>> In that case, the nation’s electricity grid collapsed after what is
>>>>> believed to have been a sudden grid frequency change outside normal
>>>>> tolerances. This triggered automatic safety systems which disconnected all
>>>>> of its power stations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Such changes can be caused by a lack of “spinning mass” electricity
>>>>> generation.
>>>>>
>>>>> In Spain’s case, this came about because the country’s grid is heavily
>>>>> reliant on solar panels, which do not use the large spinning generators
>>>>> found in nuclear or gas-fired power stations.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3:58pm
>>>>> Cause of ‘blip’ not yet known
>>>>> The cause of the power “blip” was not yet known but was believed to lie
>>>>> within National Grid’s infrastructure, an energy industry source said.
>>>>>
>>>>> Power from the National Grid is sent to regional organisations known as
>>>>> distribution network operators (DNOs).
>>>>>
>>>>> These organisations transform the power down to lower, safer voltages ready
>>>>> for distribution to businesses such as TfL and consumers.
>>>>>
>>>>> UK Power Networks, the DNO for London, confirmed to The Telegraph that
>>>>> although it was aware of the “blip”, it was not caused by UKPN equipment.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There doesn’t appear to have been any major excursion of frequency, so not
>>>> like the Spanish issue.
>>>>
>>>> https://gridwatch.co.uk/frequency
>>>>
>>>> My guess is more poorly maintained sweated asset equipment.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Probably not a lot to do with it but theres been a lot of lightning
>>> activity over London today and a bit at the time of posting..
>>>
>>> https://www.lightningmaps.org/?lang=en#google_vignette
>>
>> Yes, there’s lots of rumbling thunder over London right now, so there may
>> well have been a lightning strike on TfL power equipment.
>>
> It was a long NW-SE string progressing across the northern part of
> Greater London so maybe no coincidence.
>

The Telegraph now reports:

A cable fault led to a fire at an electrical substation in the Cunningham
Place and Aberdeen Place area in Maida Vale, a London Fire Brigade
spokesman said.

Three metres of high-voltage cabling were destroyed, it is understood.

It follows a previous fire at the same substation a few weeks ago, which
saw elderly and vulnerable residents moved out of their homes.

The blip, or brief loss of power, caused vital systems to shut down. This
included signalling-related systems used to control the trains, a source
said.

They added that power had been restored, but that resetting the systems
would take time.

Hundreds of businesses south of Oxford Street were also reported to be
affected, with power not set to be restored until after 6pm.

On 12/05/2025 19:07, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>
> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas fired
> base load stations. Then the fun will start.

  Would that be before or after the gas pipelines get fractured ?

JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 12/05/2025 16:59, Tweed wrote:
>> Put your distribution assets in the hands of monopoly private operators
>> together with an ineffective regulator and you get this. Just like the
>> water industry. The Heathrow transformer that caught fire was 57 years old.
>
>
>
> I thought many of the problems with the water industry were because
> little was spent on their networks when publicly owned?
>

Yes, that was the ostensible justification for privatisation: the private
sector would be better able to borrow to fund new infrastructure, and would
invest more efficiently. That’s not necessarily wrong, but the regulator
was utterly useless, and allowed excessive dividends to be paid, at the
expense of infrastructure investment.

On 12/05/2025 16:59, Tweed wrote:
> Put your distribution assets in the hands of monopoly private operators
> together with an ineffective regulator and you get this. Just like the
> water industry. The Heathrow transformer that caught fire was 57 years old.



I thought many of the problems with the water industry were because
little was spent on their networks when publicly owned?

Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
> On 12/05/2025 21:40, Nick Finnigan wrote:
>> On 12/05/2025 19:07, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>>>
>>> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>>> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas
>>> fired
>>> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>>
>>  Would that be before or after the gas pipelines get fractured ?
>
> The West does have a worrying dependency on offshore infrastructure
> which is impractical to guard.  The best we can hope for is to catch
> and destroy a few submarines, but they are relatively cheap to replace
> and Putin won't be crying over a few dead seamen.

They don’t need submarines to damage seabed cables, and probably not
pipelines either. Just have some random ‘neutral’ ship drag its anchor over
them.

On 12/05/2025 21:40, Nick Finnigan wrote:
> On 12/05/2025 19:07, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>>
>> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas
>> fired
>> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>
>   Would that be before or after the gas pipelines get fractured ?

The West does have a worrying dependency on offshore infrastructure
which is impractical to guard.  The best we can hope for is to catch
and destroy a few submarines, but they are relatively cheap to replace
and Putin won't be crying over a few dead seamen.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>> On 12/05/2025 21:40, Nick Finnigan wrote:
>>> On 12/05/2025 19:07, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>>>> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas
>>>> fired
>>>> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>>>
>>>  Would that be before or after the gas pipelines get fractured ?
>>
>> The West does have a worrying dependency on offshore infrastructure
>> which is impractical to guard.  The best we can hope for is to catch
>> and destroy a few submarines, but they are relatively cheap to replace
>> and Putin won't be crying over a few dead seamen.
>
> They don’t need submarines to damage seabed cables, and probably not
> pipelines either. Just have some random ‘neutral’ ship drag its anchor over
> them.

I have a vague memory that areas where undersea telecoms cables come ashore
are prohibited for anchoring or trawling activity.

It’s dated and Wired have started paywalling a lot of stuff so you may not
be able to read it, but this is a fascinating article
<https://www.wired.com/1996/12/ffglass/>.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Tue, 13 May 2025 08:53:56 +0100
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wibbled:
>On 13/05/2025 08:37, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>> On 12/05/2025 21:40, Nick Finnigan wrote:
>>>>> On 12/05/2025 19:07, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>
>>>>>> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas
>>>>>> fired
>>>>>> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Would that be before or after the gas pipelines get fractured ?
>>>>
>>>> The West does have a worrying dependency on offshore infrastructure
>>>> which is impractical to guard.  The best we can hope for is to catch
>>>> and destroy a few submarines, but they are relatively cheap to replace
>>>> and Putin won't be crying over a few dead seamen.
>>>
>>> They don’t need submarines to damage seabed cables, and probably not
>>> pipelines either. Just have some random ‘neutral’ ship drag its anchor
>over
>>> them.
>>
>> I have a vague memory that areas where undersea telecoms cables come ashore
>> are prohibited for anchoring or trawling activity.
>>
>> It’s dated and Wired have started paywalling a lot of stuff so you may not
>> be able to read it, but this is a fascinating article
>> <https://www.wired.com/1996/12/ffglass/>.
>>
>
>Most off-sure windfarms are in shallow water and a long way from
>shipping routes.

Now yes, but recently there's been this brilliant wheeze to have floating
deepwater ones for [reasons] which are not only more vulnerable but probably
cost a hell of a lot more to maintain.

On Mon, 12 May 2025 20:31:02 +0100
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wibbled:
>On Mon, 12 May 2025 18:07:37 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org
>wrote:
>>Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>>windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas fired
>>base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>>
>Maybe someone should tell the nimbies who object to inland windfarms
>and coastal cables rather than overhead lines that they are helping
>Uncle Vlad?

One good thing this government has done is reduce the power of nimbies to
block pretty much everything. Inland windfarms are everywhere in france and
like pylons you barely notice them after a while.

On Mon, 12 May 2025 21:40:26 +0100
Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wibbled:
>On 12/05/2025 19:07, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>>
>> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas fired
>> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>
>  Would that be before or after the gas pipelines get fractured ?

How much of our gas comes from pipelines? I thought most came via LNG ships
now.

On Mon, 12 May 2025 23:25:19 +0100
Certes <Certes@example.org> wibbled:
>On 12/05/2025 21:40, Nick Finnigan wrote:
>> On 12/05/2025 19:07, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>>>
>>> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>>> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas
>>> fired
>>> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>>
>>   Would that be before or after the gas pipelines get fractured ?
>
>The West does have a worrying dependency on offshore infrastructure
>which is impractical to guard.  The best we can hope for is to catch
>and destroy a few submarines, but they are relatively cheap to replace
>and Putin won't be crying over a few dead seamen.

If we sank a few russian subs we'd have a lot more to worry about than
a few severed cables.

On 13/05/2025 08:37, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>> On 12/05/2025 21:40, Nick Finnigan wrote:
>>>> On 12/05/2025 19:07, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>>>>> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas
>>>>> fired
>>>>> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>>>>
>>>>   Would that be before or after the gas pipelines get fractured ?
>>>
>>> The West does have a worrying dependency on offshore infrastructure
>>> which is impractical to guard.  The best we can hope for is to catch
>>> and destroy a few submarines, but they are relatively cheap to replace
>>> and Putin won't be crying over a few dead seamen.
>>
>> They don’t need submarines to damage seabed cables, and probably not
>> pipelines either. Just have some random ‘neutral’ ship drag its anchor over
>> them.
>
> I have a vague memory that areas where undersea telecoms cables come ashore
> are prohibited for anchoring or trawling activity.
>
> It’s dated and Wired have started paywalling a lot of stuff so you may not
> be able to read it, but this is a fascinating article
> <https://www.wired.com/1996/12/ffglass/>.
>

Most off-sure windfarms are in shallow water and a long way from
shipping routes.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Tue, 13 May 2025 9:04:39 +0000, Nick Finnigan wrote:

> On 13/05/2025 09:19, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 May 2025 21:40:26 +0100
>> Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wibbled:
>>> On 12/05/2025 19:07, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from
>>>> the
>>>> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas
>>>> fired
>>>> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>>>
>>>   Would that be before or after the gas pipelines get fractured ?
>>
>> How much of our gas comes from pipelines? I thought most came via LNG
>> ships
>> now.
>
>   We still produce enough gas for over half of our comsumption, and most
> of
> our imported gas comes from Norway.
>
>
> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/66a7aeb0fc8e12ac3edb0646/DUKES_2024_Chapter_4.pdf

And substantial exports to Belgium, higher in 2022 than in 2023.

Regards, ULF

On 13/05/2025 09:20, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
> On Mon, 12 May 2025 23:25:19 +0100
> Certes <Certes@example.org> wibbled:
>> On 12/05/2025 21:40, Nick Finnigan wrote:
>>> On 12/05/2025 19:07, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>>>> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas
>>>> fired
>>>> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>>>
>>>    Would that be before or after the gas pipelines get fractured ?
>>
>> The West does have a worrying dependency on offshore infrastructure
>> which is impractical to guard.  The best we can hope for is to catch
>> and destroy a few submarines, but they are relatively cheap to replace
>> and Putin won't be crying over a few dead seamen.
>
> If we sank a few russian subs we'd have a lot more to worry about than
> a few severed cables.

Subs can have unfortunate accidents, just like the cables do.  They'd
soon get the message.

On 13/05/2025 09:19, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
> On Mon, 12 May 2025 21:40:26 +0100
> Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wibbled:
>> On 12/05/2025 19:07, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>>>
>>> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>>> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas fired
>>> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>>
>>   Would that be before or after the gas pipelines get fractured ?
>
> How much of our gas comes from pipelines? I thought most came via LNG ships
> now.

  We still produce enough gas for over half of our comsumption, and most of
our imported gas comes from Norway.


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/66a7aeb0fc8e12ac3edb0646/DUKES_2024_Chapter_4.pdf

On 13/05/2025 09:18, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
> On Mon, 12 May 2025 20:31:02 +0100
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wibbled:
>> On Mon, 12 May 2025 18:07:37 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org
>> wrote:
>>> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>>> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas fired
>>> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>>>
>> Maybe someone should tell the nimbies who object to inland windfarms
>> and coastal cables rather than overhead lines that they are helping
>> Uncle Vlad?
>
> One good thing this government has done is reduce the power of nimbies to
> block pretty much everything. Inland windfarms are everywhere in france and
> like pylons you barely notice them after a while.
>
This is one of the rare occasions I agree with you.

On 13/05/2025 09:20, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
> On Mon, 12 May 2025 23:25:19 +0100
> Certes <Certes@example.org> wibbled:
>> On 12/05/2025 21:40, Nick Finnigan wrote:
>>> On 12/05/2025 19:07, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>>>> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas
>>>> fired
>>>> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>>>
>>>    Would that be before or after the gas pipelines get fractured ?
>>
>> The West does have a worrying dependency on offshore infrastructure
>> which is impractical to guard.  The best we can hope for is to catch
>> and destroy a few submarines, but they are relatively cheap to replace
>> and Putin won't be crying over a few dead seamen.
>
> If we sank a few russian subs we'd have a lot more to worry about than
> a few severed cables.
>

Just let the submarines be lost and not admit any liability whatsoever.

On 13/05/2025 08:37, Sam Wilson wrote:
> I have a vague memory that areas where undersea telecoms cables come ashore
> are prohibited for anchoring or trawling activity.


I am sure that will stop the Russians cutting them.   :-)  :-)  :-)

On 13/05/2025 09:18, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
> One good thing this government has done is reduce the power of nimbies to
> block pretty much everything. Inland windfarms are everywhere in france and
> like pylons you barely notice them after a while.



Certainly notice the inland Eagle Slicers as well as the offshore ones.
They blight many views.

On Tue, 13 May 2025 11:20:00 +0100
JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wibbled:
>On 13/05/2025 09:18, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>> One good thing this government has done is reduce the power of nimbies to
>> block pretty much everything. Inland windfarms are everywhere in france and
>> like pylons you barely notice them after a while.
>
>
>
>Certainly notice the inland Eagle Slicers as well as the offshore ones.
>They blight many views.

Maybe on top of a mountain in the highlands, but in some nodescript field in
norfolk I doubt many people would notice or care.

On Mon, 12 May 2025 20:41:19 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 May 2025 16:25:01 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> 3:59pm
>>>>>> Similarities to Spanish power cut
>>>>>> The power ?blip? suggests some similarities with the nationwide power
>>>>>> outage that struck Spain last month.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In that case, the nation?s electricity grid collapsed after what is
>>>>>> believed to have been a sudden grid frequency change outside normal
>>>>>> tolerances. This triggered automatic safety systems which disconnected all
>>>>>> of its power stations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Such changes can be caused by a lack of ?spinning mass? electricity
>>>>>> generation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Spain?s case, this came about because the country?s grid is heavily
>>>>>> reliant on solar panels, which do not use the large spinning generators
>>>>>> found in nuclear or gas-fired power stations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3:58pm
>>>>>> Cause of ?blip? not yet known
>>>>>> The cause of the power ?blip? was not yet known but was believed to lie
>>>>>> within National Grid?s infrastructure, an energy industry source said.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Power from the National Grid is sent to regional organisations known as
>>>>>> distribution network operators (DNOs).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These organisations transform the power down to lower, safer voltages ready
>>>>>> for distribution to businesses such as TfL and consumers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> UK Power Networks, the DNO for London, confirmed to The Telegraph that
>>>>>> although it was aware of the ?blip?, it was not caused by UKPN equipment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There doesn?t appear to have been any major excursion of frequency, so not
>>>>> like the Spanish issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://gridwatch.co.uk/frequency
>>>>>
>>>>> My guess is more poorly maintained sweated asset equipment.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Probably not a lot to do with it but theres been a lot of lightning
>>>> activity over London today and a bit at the time of posting..
>>>>
>>>> https://www.lightningmaps.org/?lang=en#google_vignette
>>>
>>> Yes, there?s lots of rumbling thunder over London right now, so there may
>>> well have been a lightning strike on TfL power equipment.
>>>
>> It was a long NW-SE string progressing across the northern part of
>> Greater London so maybe no coincidence.
>>
>
>The Telegraph now reports:
>
>A cable fault led to a fire at an electrical substation in the Cunningham
>Place and Aberdeen Place area in Maida Vale, a London Fire Brigade
>spokesman said.
>
>Three metres of high-voltage cabling were destroyed, it is understood.
>
>It follows a previous fire at the same substation a few weeks ago, which
>saw elderly and vulnerable residents moved out of their homes.
>
>The blip, or brief loss of power, caused vital systems to shut down. This
>included signalling-related systems used to control the trains, a source
>said.
>
>They added that power had been restored, but that resetting the systems
>would take time.
>
>Hundreds of businesses south of Oxford Street were also reported to be
>affected, with power not set to be restored until after 6pm.
>
That sounds vaguely remeniscent of a power cut in the West End some
years where the peculiarities of the local distribution system (more a
tree than a mesh?) encouraged a chain of failure. IIRC the usual
connection methods are hindered by non-standard voltages on the HV
side which limits which adjacent substations can be connected to.

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> They don?'t need submarines to damage seabed cables, and probably not
>> pipelines either. Just have some random "neutral" ship drag its anchor over
>> them.
>
> I have a vague memory that areas where undersea telecoms cables come ashore
> are prohibited for anchoring or trawling activity.

That, for some reason, doesn't seem to work in the vicinity of Taiwan's
various outlying islands.

#Paul

On 13/05/2025 09:18, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
> On Mon, 12 May 2025 20:31:02 +0100
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wibbled:
>> On Mon, 12 May 2025 18:07:37 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org
>> wrote:
>>> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>>> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas fired
>>> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>>>
>> Maybe someone should tell the nimbies who object to inland windfarms
>> and coastal cables rather than overhead lines that they are helping
>> Uncle Vlad?
>
> One good thing this government has done is reduce the power of nimbies to
> block pretty much everything. Inland windfarms are everywhere in france and
> like pylons you barely notice them after a while.
>

Pylons and overhead wires are cheaper to install than underground power
lines - but they are more susceptible to weather damage from the
increasingly severe storms that are an inevitable consequence of global
warming.**

(** - For non-believers, higher temperatures increase the amount of
water vapour that the atmosphere can hold - and it is water vapour that
provides much of the energy to create storms.)

On Tue, 13 May 2025 22:15:15 +0100
Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wibbled:
>On 13/05/2025 09:18, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 May 2025 20:31:02 +0100
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wibbled:
>>> On Mon, 12 May 2025 18:07:37 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org
>>> wrote:
>>>> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>>>> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas fired
>
>>>> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>>>>
>>> Maybe someone should tell the nimbies who object to inland windfarms
>>> and coastal cables rather than overhead lines that they are helping
>>> Uncle Vlad?
>>
>> One good thing this government has done is reduce the power of nimbies to
>> block pretty much everything. Inland windfarms are everywhere in france and
>> like pylons you barely notice them after a while.
>>
>
>Pylons and overhead wires are cheaper to install than underground power
>lines - but they are more susceptible to weather damage from the
>increasingly severe storms that are an inevitable consequence of global
>warming.**

OK, and?

Wind farms need wind and designed properly they could also operate in storms
by dynamically feathering the prop but obviously that would cost more so
they probably don't bother.

JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 13/05/2025 08:37, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> I have a vague memory that areas where undersea telecoms cables come ashore
>> are prohibited for anchoring or trawling activity.
>
>
> I am sure that will stop the Russians cutting them.   :-)  :-)  :-)

Sure, but at least they’ll be obvious!

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 13/05/2025 08:37, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>> On 12/05/2025 21:40, Nick Finnigan wrote:
>>>>> On 12/05/2025 19:07, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>>>>>> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas
>>>>>> fired
>>>>>> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Would that be before or after the gas pipelines get fractured ?
>>>>
>>>> The West does have a worrying dependency on offshore infrastructure
>>>> which is impractical to guard.  The best we can hope for is to catch
>>>> and destroy a few submarines, but they are relatively cheap to replace
>>>> and Putin won't be crying over a few dead seamen.
>>>
>>> They don’t need submarines to damage seabed cables, and probably not
>>> pipelines either. Just have some random ‘neutral’ ship drag its anchor over
>>> them.
>>
>> I have a vague memory that areas where undersea telecoms cables come ashore
>> are prohibited for anchoring or trawling activity.
>>
>> It’s dated and Wired have started paywalling a lot of stuff so you may not
>> be able to read it, but this is a fascinating article
>> <https://www.wired.com/1996/12/ffglass/>.
>>
>
> Most off-sure windfarms are in shallow water and a long way from
> shipping routes.

And a friend who used to work in the power industry tells me that, like
undersea comms cables in shallow water, the power cables are mostly buried.
 That mitigates the risk of accidental damage somewhat.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 13/05/2025 08:37, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>> On 12/05/2025 21:40, Nick Finnigan wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/05/2025 19:07, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>>>>>>> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas
>>>>>>> fired
>>>>>>> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Would that be before or after the gas pipelines get fractured ?
>>>>>
>>>>> The West does have a worrying dependency on offshore infrastructure
>>>>> which is impractical to guard.  The best we can hope for is to catch
>>>>> and destroy a few submarines, but they are relatively cheap to replace
>>>>> and Putin won't be crying over a few dead seamen.
>>>>
>>>> They don’t need submarines to damage seabed cables, and probably not
>>>> pipelines either. Just have some random ‘neutral’ ship drag its anchor over
>>>> them.
>>>
>>> I have a vague memory that areas where undersea telecoms cables come ashore
>>> are prohibited for anchoring or trawling activity.
>>>
>>> It’s dated and Wired have started paywalling a lot of stuff so you may not
>>> be able to read it, but this is a fascinating article
>>> <https://www.wired.com/1996/12/ffglass/>.
>>>
>>
>> Most off-sure windfarms are in shallow water and a long way from
>> shipping routes.
>
> And a friend who used to work in the power industry tells me that, like
> undersea comms cables in shallow water, the power cables are mostly buried.
>  That mitigates the risk of accidental damage somewhat.
>
> Sam
>

Funny how the anti renewable lobby have suddenly become concerned about
undersea power cables but have never raised a concern about all those gas
and oil pipelines in the North Sea. Half of our gas supplies come via
undersea pipelines. Such pipelines are vulnerable, as has already been
demonstrated in the Baltic.

On Tue, 13 May 2025 11:20:00 +0100, JMB99 wrote:

> On 13/05/2025 09:18, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>> One good thing this government has done is reduce the power of nimbies
>> to block pretty much everything. Inland windfarms are everywhere in
>> france and like pylons you barely notice them after a while.
>
> Certainly notice the inland Eagle Slicers as well as the offshore ones.
> They blight many views.

The improve many more.

On 14/05/2025 08:26, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
> On Tue, 13 May 2025 22:15:15 +0100
> Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wibbled:
>> On 13/05/2025 09:18, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>>> On Mon, 12 May 2025 20:31:02 +0100
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wibbled:
>>>> On Mon, 12 May 2025 18:07:37 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>>>>> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas fired
>>
>>>>> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>>>>>
>>>> Maybe someone should tell the nimbies who object to inland windfarms
>>>> and coastal cables rather than overhead lines that they are helping
>>>> Uncle Vlad?
>>>
>>> One good thing this government has done is reduce the power of nimbies to
>>> block pretty much everything. Inland windfarms are everywhere in france and
>>> like pylons you barely notice them after a while.
>>>
>>
>> Pylons and overhead wires are cheaper to install than underground power
>> lines - but they are more susceptible to weather damage from the
>> increasingly severe storms that are an inevitable consequence of global
>> warming.**
>
> OK, and?
>
> Wind farms need wind and designed properly they could also operate in storms
> by dynamically feathering the prop but obviously that would cost more so
> they probably don't bother.
>
>

That might improve, but only a little, on the UK average availability of
24.5% in 2023. Data unfortunately does not distinguish between off for
maintenance / not enough wind / too much wind / no grid availability so
constraint payments are made.

Constraint payments to suppliers/owners for not generating lecktrickery
but we all pay for them to do nowt. I cannot see the justification for
such payments!

--
Colin

On 14/05/2025 10:13, Tweed wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 13/05/2025 08:37, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/05/2025 21:40, Nick Finnigan wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/05/2025 19:07, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wait until russian underwater mini subs start cutting the cables from the
>>>>>>>> windmills in the north sea once Millipede has closed down all our gas
>>>>>>>> fired
>>>>>>>> base load stations. Then the fun will start.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Would that be before or after the gas pipelines get fractured ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The West does have a worrying dependency on offshore infrastructure
>>>>>> which is impractical to guard.  The best we can hope for is to catch
>>>>>> and destroy a few submarines, but they are relatively cheap to replace
>>>>>> and Putin won't be crying over a few dead seamen.
>>>>>
>>>>> They don’t need submarines to damage seabed cables, and probably not
>>>>> pipelines either. Just have some random ‘neutral’ ship drag its anchor over
>>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>> I have a vague memory that areas where undersea telecoms cables come ashore
>>>> are prohibited for anchoring or trawling activity.
>>>>
>>>> It’s dated and Wired have started paywalling a lot of stuff so you may not
>>>> be able to read it, but this is a fascinating article
>>>> <https://www.wired.com/1996/12/ffglass/>.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Most off-sure windfarms are in shallow water and a long way from
>>> shipping routes.
>>
>> And a friend who used to work in the power industry tells me that, like
>> undersea comms cables in shallow water, the power cables are mostly buried.
>>   That mitigates the risk of accidental damage somewhat.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
> Funny how the anti renewable lobby have suddenly become concerned about
> undersea power cables but have never raised a concern about all those gas
> and oil pipelines in the North Sea. Half of our gas supplies come via
> undersea pipelines. Such pipelines are vulnerable, as has already been
> demonstrated in the Baltic.
>

One reason is that there are concerns the effect on fish stocks in the
proximity of high power cables - such a concern does not exist with gas
and oil lines (if they remain intact).

--
Colin

On Wed, 14 May 2025 12:24:06 +0100
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wibbled:
>On 14/05/2025 08:26, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>> Wind farms need wind and designed properly they could also operate in storms
>> by dynamically feathering the prop but obviously that would cost more so
>> they probably don't bother.
>>
>>
>
>That might improve, but only a little, on the UK average availability of
>24.5% in 2023. Data unfortunately does not distinguish between off for

As I write this is looks like 39% of the UKs leccy is coming from solar.
Never seen it that high before, didn't think we had enough solar plants tbh.
Wind 17%, and its reasonably windy today. Oh dear.

On 14/05/2025 12:14, Clank wrote:
> The improve many more.


I have never seen anywhere where Eagle Slicers improve the view.

JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 14/05/2025 12:14, Clank wrote:
>> The improve many more.
>
>
> I have never seen anywhere where Eagle Slicers improve the view.
>
I think the vast wind farm just south of Glasgow is a majestic sight.

<Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 May 2025 12:24:06 +0100
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wibbled:
>> On 14/05/2025 08:26, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org wrote:
>>> Wind farms need wind and designed properly they could also operate in storms
>>> by dynamically feathering the prop but obviously that would cost more so
>>> they probably don't bother.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That might improve, but only a little, on the UK average availability of
>> 24.5% in 2023. Data unfortunately does not distinguish between off for
>
> As I write this is looks like 39% of the UKs leccy is coming from solar.
> Never seen it that high before, didn't think we had enough solar plants tbh.
> Wind 17%, and its reasonably windy today. Oh dear.
>
>

Well I’m contributing 3kW of that solar output!

Wind has managed 40% this month. It may well be that wind is currently
artificially constrained so we don’t have a repeat of the Spanish problem.
Both wind and solar tend to be followers of grid frequency, ie their
electronics look at the frequency and match it. Conventional plant sustains
the frequency by virtue of the inertia of the generators. If you don’t keep
enough inertial generation the system trips out in the event of a fault and
a sudden dip of frequency. The renewables notice the dip, see it is out of
spec and turn off. This can be overcome by using vast battery banks to act
as electronic inertia, but these are still being built. So at the moment we
need a proportion of conventional rotating machine generation. Solar is
hard to switch off as much of it is small generation without any remote
disconnect capability (eg the system on my roof), so it will be wind that
gets turned off in the event of too much of a proportion of renewable
generation. If you look at yesterday’s generation, as the sun went down the
wind generation went up.