🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <_Ft97.1534$ww1.135579@news02.tsnz.net>, "NZMSC"
<nzmscon@paradise.net.nz> wrote:


>> The newbie chose a pace
>> vastly over his head, a fact only graphically evidenced later.
> And none of you "experienced" riders noticed that? Hmmm.

Jesus Christ, folks.  Lets activate the brains for a bit.  Ok?

Daniel and Andrew certainly could have and should have acted differently.
 Lets take that as a given for a moment.  Sit for a bit and think on
where the main causal event lyes here.

Speaking as someone who's screwed up fairly majorly in the past, I think
we need to also concider the mistakes of the downed rider himself.  Just
because he got a bit roughed up and his bike was more or less shitcaned
doesn't make him blameless.  He was riding thoughtlessly, stupidy.  He
made -very- poor choices.  I've been riding with fairly quick riders
occasionally recently, and the ability to just let 'em go is as important
to riding safely as using both brakes or countersteering.  He didn't do
that, and deserves some of our negative attention just as I have.

Yes, motorcyclists need to watch out for each other.  But they also respect each
other.  When I ride with people, I want friends, not nannys.  I hope that
Daniel and Andrew make somewhat different choices in the future, but I
also hope they continue to respect the people that they ride with as
individuals and adults.  And I hope that in the future these people
will be sensible to deserve that trust.

Sigless Reed.

8< blah blah group riding stuff 8<

I hate group riding. Pulled from the front, pushed from the rear. Even if
this isn't true, that's the way it always feels to me. Makes it not fun. I'd
rather ride with maybe ONE other person. Two at tops, but they have to be
good enough friends that I don't feel the need to keep up. For me it's not
trying to go fast to impress others it's more like I feel I'm slowing the
group down and maybe people aren't having fun because I'm somehow wrecking
it by being slow. No thanks. No pressure = fun for me.

Vinnie da Slug

> 5)  Perhaps one should chose riding group company carefully.  This is
> an oft-repeated theme in this newsgroup, one I'm only now starting to
> really agree with.
>

Daniel? Really? Once....a long time ago ( insert a period of years not to
exceed 12 ) I proudly rode out front of all groups. I was, after all, the
"fast" guy. 1989 ZX-10....brand new....yep.....I was...DA MAN.

Then a bad thing happened....I sold the Kawasaki and actually learned to
RIDE. And within weeks of learning this new found skill ("riding") I also
learned to never...ever....ever....lead...unless I wanted to make early runs
back to the house for the pickup to retreive bikes.

This weekend I went for a ride with someone I had never even met before...an
Internet friend as it were. As we drove along at a nice sedate pace I
doggedly followed this rule all the way up the canyon. Then I decided I just
HAD to lead back down. And there...in my rear view mirrors...it started
happening. The other rider was thrown by my go one speed everywhere riding
style to the point where on a corner exit or two I caught the dreaded "drift
into the other lane" thing happening. I immediately slowed down to impulse
speed everywhere.....10 mph in the corners, 45 mph in the
straightaways...just like we had done coming up the canyon.

And kicked myself for even THINKING I should ever lead...anyone...ever.

Don't get me wrong...years after making that rule...to not lead....I changed
it. Now I lead when I'm with regular riding buddies. No
newbys....experienced all...leathers....guys who've been to the track or who
have gone since I've known them.

But anyone without a number plate on their bike...who I don't know.....I'd
rather follow. Forever if necessary.....as slow as a stone if necessary.

I really hate it when rides end up with broken bikes or a trip to the
hospital.

Troy "Thou Shalt Never Lead" The Troll

>As mentioned in another thread, a Sunday ride in NW WA State turned
>into a bit of crash-fest.  Difficult to know where to start on this

Which is why I NEVER ride in groups (along with being an asocial bastard of
course....). The few groups I've ridden in, I'll ride off the front or off hte
back. That way everyone else can happily have mechanised-group-sex without
affecting me.

>Getting to the heart of the matter, the group newbie highsided at
>somewhere between 60-90 mph on a fairly tricky turn, out in the

Damned stupid pace for a group ride.

>Evidence from this little drama strongly suggests the issue occurred
>due to Mr. Newbie riding far over his head, in an attempt to corral up
>and overtake another group member (me, in this case).  I'm told the

And why were teh "experienced" leaders of teh group not riding at a pace that
protects teh newbies from this eventuality????????????

>wreck occurred soon after I exited the turn in question, as Mr. Newbie
>turned it up a notch to "catch" me.  Chalk one up for youth and
>exuberance superceding common sense.

Whos? His or yours? Why were you riding at such a pace that the guy following
couldnt keep up? A group ride is not a race. If your ego is such that you have
to show off how good you are to neebies, you shouldnt be allowed near other
motorcyclists.

>Not concentrating on riders behind me, I remained unaware until the

Why????????????? Every rder in a group wshould constantly be checking his
mirrors and be able to see at least TWO following bikes.

>Solid takeaways, from my perspective:
>
>1)  Riding a motorcycle at a pace over one's head more often than not
>leads to disaster.

As does group risding with folk who have no concern for slower riders in teh
group.

>3)  The street is not the track.  Unfamiliar, twisty roads must be
>viewed with caution and treated gingerly.

No need if you ride the Vanishing Point. Ther are no unfamiliar roads with teh
Vanishing Point.

>4)  Allowing one's ego to write checks your skill level cannot cash
>will drop you on the pavement in record time.

And riding above the level of experience of other riders in the group will do
that to THEM.

>5)  Perhaps one should chose riding group company carefully.  This is
>an oft-repeated theme in this newsgroup, one I'm only now starting to
>really agree with.

I do. I ride alone. For reasons very adequately outlined by this thread.

"Reed Kennedy" <cornerSP@mmail.com> wrote
>

{snip}

> Speaking as someone who's screwed up fairly majorly in the past, I think
> we need to also concider the mistakes of the downed rider himself.  Just
> because he got a bit roughed up and his bike was more or less shitcaned
> doesn't make him blameless.  He was riding thoughtlessly, stupidy.  He
> made -very- poor choices.  I've been riding with fairly quick riders
> occasionally recently, and the ability to just let 'em go is as important
> to riding safely as using both brakes or countersteering.  He didn't do
> that, and deserves some of our negative attention just as I have.

I couldn't agree more.  Every time you crash, it's your own damn fault, and
no excuses cut it.  But....

> Yes, motorcyclists need to watch out for each other.  But they also
respect each
> other.  When I ride with people, I want friends, not nannys.  I hope that
> Daniel and Andrew make somewhat different choices in the future, but I
> also hope they continue to respect the people that they ride with as
> individuals and adults.

They were out on a group ride.  GROUP ride.  They were riding together, from
point A to point B.  The ultimate differense between group and solo is that
you always have to be aware of your riding mates, to know where they are, to
keep an eye on them, etc.  And you have to act according to what you see.
If you see that others can't keep up, you slow down.  If someone crashes you
stop.  If someone crashes and you don't notice, it's not a group ride
anymore--it's a bunch of people on motorcycles acting irresponsibly.

IMHO.

Nikita.



  And I hope that in the future these people
> will be sensible to deserve that trust.
>
> Sigless Reed.

Daniel Bannon wrote:

> Not concentrating on riders behind me, I remained unaware until the
> next rally point, 35 miles down the road.  Riders behind me saw
> nothing either, passing the turn minutes behind the crash, as the
> whole shebang (newbie rider, bike, and most parts) ended in the ditch
> and out of sight. We only realized the possibility of a problem much
> later, when rider no. 4 failed to arrive.
>
> Solid takeaways, from my perspective:
>
> 1)  Riding a motorcycle at a pace over one's head more often than not
> leads to disaster.
> 2)  Good riding gear once again saves a life, or at minimum stopped
> serious injury.
> 3)  The street is not the track.  Unfamiliar, twisty roads must be
> viewed with caution and treated gingerly.
> 4)  Allowing one's ego to write checks your skill level cannot cash
> will drop you on the pavement in record time.
> 5)  Perhaps one should chose riding group company carefully.  This is
> an oft-repeated theme in this newsgroup, one I'm only now starting to
> really agree with.

All points I agree with. However, I would never ride in any group that
didn't look out for its fellow members. That you could *all* travel 35
miles down the road without realizing that one of your number was
missing begs the question as to whether this was a group ride or just a
bunch of individuals who happened to be riding on the same road at
approximately the same time.

Tim

>And none of you "experienced" riders noticed that? Hmmm.



>I gather we are equating "best" with speed here...



>You ride in a group and don't "concentrate" on the others in your group.
>Remind me not to ride with you. The basic rules of riding in a group is to
>keep an eye on the rider behind you and stop if s/he disappears.
>
>While you were playing selfish boy racer, that newbie could have been dying
>in that ditch.


>You don't notice for *35 miles* that the newbie has disappeared off your
>tail?!!!! How often don't you look in your mirrors.


Allan. Its crossposted to alt.squidbike. What do you expect? ALL teh really
stupid threads are crossposted to alt.squidbike



>Quite truthfully, Daniel, I'm appalled.

Aye. I was too. But sadly, no longer shocked.



>Too often, we hear riders say that car drivers don't care a darn about
>motorcyclists. So, when I hear of instances like this where a motorcyclist
>doesn't seem to care a darn about the fate of another motorcyclist, and
>especially because it's one of his friends, then I'm saddened, as well as
>appalled.

Politically correct it may not be on rec.moto, but I find teh WORST road users
I see are squids on motorcycles. Car drivers are uniformly incompetent, but
teh REAL paychopaths ride bikes :(      Nowadays, if I see ANY bike coming up
behind me, my immediate priority becomes to get him past and into teh back of
someone else as quickly as possible.   If I come up behind another rider, I am
MUCH more careful about overtaking him cos he's more liekly to play silly
buggers than a car driver.

When I'm on hte bike I regard car drivers as The Enemy, bit I also regard
bikers as The Enemy too. It only takes one of these cself obssessed squids to
kill you. Bikers frighten me more than car drivers. They can do stupid things
faster and less predictably.

"Nikita Synytskyy" <nikitaLIPOSUCTION@mondenet.com> wrote in message
news:9k68bf$2rmot$1@ID-30174.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Reed Kennedy" <cornerSP@mmail.com> wrote
> >
>
> {snip}
>
> > Speaking as someone who's screwed up fairly majorly in the past, I think
> > we need to also concider the mistakes of the downed rider himself.  Just
> > because he got a bit roughed up and his bike was more or less shitcaned
> > doesn't make him blameless.  He was riding thoughtlessly, stupidy.  He
> > made -very- poor choices.  I've been riding with fairly quick riders
> > occasionally recently, and the ability to just let 'em go is as
important
> > to riding safely as using both brakes or countersteering.  He didn't do
> > that, and deserves some of our negative attention just as I have.
>
> I couldn't agree more.  Every time you crash, it's your own damn fault,
and
> no excuses cut it.  But....
>
> > Yes, motorcyclists need to watch out for each other.  But they also
> respect each
> > other.  When I ride with people, I want friends, not nannys.  I hope
that
> > Daniel and Andrew make somewhat different choices in the future, but I
> > also hope they continue to respect the people that they ride with as
> > individuals and adults.
>
> They were out on a group ride.  GROUP ride.  They were riding together,
from
> point A to point B.  The ultimate differense between group and solo is
that
> you always have to be aware of your riding mates, to know where they are,
to
> keep an eye on them, etc.  And you have to act according to what you see.
> If you see that others can't keep up, you slow down.  If someone crashes
you
> stop.  If someone crashes and you don't notice, it's not a group ride
> anymore--it's a bunch of people on motorcycles acting irresponsibly.
>


You know everyone keeps mentioning this Group Ride thing.  Before we headed
out on the ferry we discussed how everyone should ride his own ride.  We all
knew Daniel would be way out front, and I said I would be happy to bring up
the rear.  We all knew the waypoints, and I mentioned that the road was
treacherous several times.

Squidboy just had it in his mind to "Race" out there.  I swear he posted on
our Intranet msg board that he was trying to hang with Bannon and possibly
even pass him.   We did ride as a group out to this area, just as we had
lunch as a group, however everyone knew to ride their own ride when we got
on the destination road.   I told them we should queue up in order of
comfort and head out from there.  So by definiton, I am not sure the actual
twisty part was ever supposed to be a group ride.

--
Andrew
00 Sprint RS
http://ultrasupercool.com

>Solid takeaways, from my perspective:
>
>1)  Riding a motorcycle at a pace over one's head more often than not
>leads to disaster.
>2)  Good riding gear once again saves a life, or at minimum stopped
>serious injury.
>3)  The street is not the track.  Unfamiliar, twisty roads must be
>viewed with caution and treated gingerly.
>4)  Allowing one's ego to write checks your skill level cannot cash
>will drop you on the pavement in record time.
>5)  Perhaps one should chose riding group company carefully.  This is
>an oft-repeated theme in this newsgroup, one I'm only now starting to
>really agree with.

All good.

I would suggest another:

6)  While considering the well-being of others is certainly a good
thing, it is ultimately one's own responsibility to not get dead.

Steve


1999 Bandit 1200S
1975 CB400F (<-- needs left footpeg and shift linkage)

"Andrew" <yogig@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tmdls6kpl06sc3@corp.supernews.com...
> We did ride as a group out to this area, just as we had
> lunch as a group, however everyone knew to ride their own ride when we got
> on the destination road.   I told them we should queue up in order of
> comfort and head out from there.  So by definiton, I am not sure the
actual
> twisty part was ever supposed to be a group ride.


You are former President Clinton's legal advisor and I claim my box of
pre-soaked cigars!

It all depends on what the definition of is, is...

"jim rozen" <jrr0@watson.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:3B66C78A.D7A0E14D@watson.ibm.com...

> I sure as hell would not ride with a batch who's idea of companionship
> is to say, hey, what happend to joe, we haven't seen him a few hours.

I have ridden on a lot of group rides, some with as many as 23 riders.
Large rides usually are more organized, with a sweep vehicle, so no one is
left in the ditch.

With the exception of the crew I regularly ride with in Seattle, most of the
group rides have been were with one familiar person and the rest are
typically total strangers. Even though these riders are strangers, I see no
problem with this -- it all depends on the caliper of the riders.  For
example, last time I was in LA I rode with a few members of a sportbike
club.  I entered a few turns wrong in a really tight and technical canyon,
and that messed me up for each consecutive turn.  I had to slow way down,
but I was feeling pressure because a guy on a Hayabusa was following me.
This guy was a great rider and I knew he *must* have felt like his style was
being cramped.  I motioned for him to pass me, which he refused.  I think he
did this because it was his way of saying "no pressure" -- just ride your
ride.  I suppose he could have left me ten miles behind and if I wadded I be
found on the side of the road like a sail rabbit. It all depends on the
individuals.

"NZMSC" <nzmscon@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:_Ft97.1534$ww1.135579@news02.tsnz.net...
> Daniel Bannon wrote in message
> >I believe our newbike
> > hopped the rear wheel under hard braking while attempting to slow,
> > failed to adequately shed speed, target-fixated, turned too late, and
> > high-sided once his front locked on the shoulder gravel.
>
> You don't highside when you lock your front wheel in gravel - unless you
> release it suddenly again or get sudden grip from somewhere.
>
> > The newbie chose a pace
> > vastly over his head, a fact only graphically evidenced later.
>
> And none of you "experienced" riders noticed that? Hmmm.
>
> > Motorcyclists can be independent beasts, and I believe we
> > all strive for a personal best.  That personal best varies by
> > individual.
>
> I gather we are equating "best" with speed here...
>
> > I'm told the
> > wreck occurred soon after I exited the turn in question, as Mr. Newbie
> > turned it up a notch to "catch" me.
> <snip>
> > Riders behind me saw
> > nothing either, passing the turn minutes behind the crash, as the
> > whole shebang (newbie rider, bike, and most parts) ended in the ditch
> > and out of sight. We only realized the possibility of a problem much
> > later, when rider no. 4 failed to arrive.
>
> 1) If none of the other riders saw the crash, who "told (you) the wreck
> occurred soon after (you) exited the turn in question, as Mr. Newbie
turned
> it up a notch to "catch" (you)".
>
> >Not concentrating on riders behind me, I remained unaware until the
> > next rally point, 35 miles down the road.
>
> You ride in a group and don't "concentrate" on the others in your group.
> Remind me not to ride with you. The basic rules of riding in a group is to
> keep an eye on the rider behind you and stop if s/he disappears.
>
> While you were playing selfish boy racer, that newbie could have been
dying
> in that ditch.
>
> If you are riding with a group, you are riding with a group and owe an
> obligation to the individuals group. If you want to do your own thing, you
> aren't riding in a group. You can't have it both ways.
>
> You don't notice for *35 miles* that the newbie has disappeared off your
> tail?!!!! How often don't you look in your mirrors.
>
> Quite truthfully, Daniel, I'm appalled. If you start off as a group, you
> should continue as a group otherwise potentially fatal incidents like this
> will happen. Also, if you have someone on your tail, you should at all
times
> know what that person is doing (that's a basic commonsense riding skill) -
> and if that person is part of your group and suddenly disappears, you
worry!
>
> Too often, we hear riders say that car drivers don't care a darn about
> motorcyclists. So, when I hear of instances like this where a motorcyclist
> doesn't seem to care a darn about the fate of another motorcyclist, and
> especially because it's one of his friends, then I'm saddened, as well as
> appalled.
>
> --
> Allan Kirk
> New Zealand Motorcycle Safety Consultants
> (Saving motorcyclists' lives since 1971)
> Website: http://www.megarider.com
>
Allan,
You ever heard of the words "Personal Responsibility"?
Each and every rider is (and should be) responsible for his/her own actions.

Shawn
00-R1

Andy Woodward wrote:
>

> When I'm on hte bike I regard car drivers as The Enemy, bit I
> also regard bikers as The Enemy too.

 Don't forget conservatives. They are The Enemy of Teh People
and Hte Planet.
 HTH

Andy Woodward wrote:

>  Whay da you think tehy
> split trackschools up into categories byt speed instead of letting Darwin sort
> it all out??????

Point well taken.  Like the gent said, public roads are not tracks, and
racing on public roads (with the attendant extra risk of having other
vehicles around, and the attendant black eye that bike riding gets
when folks wad it up on a public road....) is just moronic.

And as the other gent said, choose your riding partners well.  There's
*two* riders I will trust enough to ride with - without having to think
twice about them.  Everyone else, and it's a nosebleed, constantly.
I sure as hell would not ride with a batch who's idea of companionship
is to say, hey, what happend to joe, we haven't seen him a few hours.

But then, the primary rule is, to ride your own ride.

Sounds like a f%ck-all from all sides around.

Jim

I've been in situations where I had been riding with a less experienced
person and had let them go ahead of me, but the person proceeded
to floor it and outpace the speed at which I could ride comfortably.
Of course, concerned for the new rider, I was tempted to try to
catch up and tell him to slow down, but honestly I don't think that
would have been a good idea.   So there was basically nothing
I could do, and the new rider was on his own.
This I think is a good counter-example to the advise I've heard
saying that experienced riders should hang back so they can keep
an eye on the new rider.   If you are more experienced than someone
else, ride in front, and ride within the speed limit.   I find that most
times the posted speed limits are more than adequate for determining
entry speeds into turns.   Also, signs like "hidden drive" or those
sharp turn arrow signs ought to give you a clue as to what speed
you should be going.   Personally, I can't understand why 90%
of motorcyclists I see seem to think that the road is a racetrack.
I guess they are racing legends in their own minds.


Daniel Bannon wrote:

> As mentioned in another thread, a Sunday ride in NW WA State turned
> into a bit of crash-fest.  Difficult to know where to start on this
> one.  (The other thread contains a bit of bait which I may elect to
> respond to later; that's another story.)  One rider in our small group
> ride high-sided quite hard on a difficult section of pavement, and
> somehow walked away from it.  How and why it occurred are perhaps of
> interest to the group.
>
> Two other gents and I attended a ride organized by Andrew,
> rec.motorcycle regular and "ride captain."  The most interesting and
> technical part of the ride is WA Hwy 112, west from Port Angeles, WA
> to Neah Bay and back.  From Seattle, the first half of the ride is on
> relatively sedate, straight roads until the fun stuff begins.
>
> Perhaps most germane to the topic, the group skill level varied a bit:
> Andrew and I, at "experienced," albeit enjoying different riding
> paces; a third guy with about a year's street riding; and the final
> guy: relative newbie.  For the detail-hungry, bikes were: Honda
> Blackbird (me), Triumph Sprint RS (Andrew), late-model Yamaha R1
> (rider with one year experience), and 1999 Kawasaki ZX-6R, mount of
> the ill-fated newbie.
>
> Getting to the heart of the matter, the group newbie highsided at
> somewhere between 60-90 mph on a fairly tricky turn, out in the
> boondocks.  In a borderline-miraculous outcome, he walked away with
> very light injuries: contusions and bit of disorientation, the latter
> possibly from a light rap on the noggin.  This after the bike slid 75
> feet, he went airborne then slid maybe half that far, and both landing
> in a grassy/hummocky ditch (what I call "the swamp": the boggy,
> hummocky terrain so common to this state).  The bike is heavily
> damaged, but probably repairable for an estimated $3,000 (cursory
> calculation).
>
> I've never ridden this run before.  Our weather was dicey, with a
> little rain and sun.  Hwy 112  has a few treacherous turns, areas of
> little runoff, and other hazards.  Also, interesting (read:
> challenging) pavement conditions in certain sections.  One of these
> pavement hazards almost certainly sunk our newbie: fast ripples
> approaching a turn after a moderate straightaway, posing a serious
> challenge to slow properly to set up the turn.  I believe our newbike
> hopped the rear wheel under hard braking while attempting to slow,
> failed to adequately shed speed, target-fixated, turned too late, and
> high-sided once his front locked on the shoulder gravel.
>
> Ironically, the ride went well up to the crash.  We all chose what I
> thought individually-appropriate paces for the twisty part of the run,
> Hwy 112.  This impression was incorrect: the newbie chose a pace
> vastly over his head, a fact only graphically evidenced later.
>
> Prior to the twisty part, ride captain Andrew set a rally point or two
> for us to meet up, at our individual paces.  I've been known to sally
> forth ahead on such rides, setting a personal brisk pace well within
> my limits.  Motorcyclists can be independent beasts, and I believe we
> all strive for a personal best.  That personal best varies by
> individual.  Rendezvousing a little later still maintains a group
> spirit, while allowing individuals to seek their own personal nirvana.
> Such is my view of things; no warranties applied or insinuated, as
> they say.
>
> Evidence from this little drama strongly suggests the issue occurred
> due to Mr. Newbie riding far over his head, in an attempt to corral up
> and overtake another group member (me, in this case).  I'm told the
> wreck occurred soon after I exited the turn in question, as Mr. Newbie
> turned it up a notch to "catch" me.  Chalk one up for youth and
> exuberance superceding common sense.
>
> Not concentrating on riders behind me, I remained unaware until the
> next rally point, 35 miles down the road.  Riders behind me saw
> nothing either, passing the turn minutes behind the crash, as the
> whole shebang (newbie rider, bike, and most parts) ended in the ditch
> and out of sight. We only realized the possibility of a problem much
> later, when rider no. 4 failed to arrive.
>
> Solid takeaways, from my perspective:
>
> 1)  Riding a motorcycle at a pace over one's head more often than not
> leads to disaster.
> 2)  Good riding gear once again saves a life, or at minimum stopped
> serious injury.
> 3)  The street is not the track.  Unfamiliar, twisty roads must be
> viewed with caution and treated gingerly.
> 4)  Allowing one's ego to write checks your skill level cannot cash
> will drop you on the pavement in record time.
> 5)  Perhaps one should chose riding group company carefully.  This is
> an oft-repeated theme in this newsgroup, one I'm only now starting to
> really agree with.
>
>
> '-----------------------------------------------------
> ' Daniel Bannon
> ' NW WA State, U.S.A.
> ' 2000 Aprilia RSV Mille
> ' 1999 Honda CBR1100XX Blackbird
> ' "Eschew obfuscation!"
> '-----------------------------------------------------

Andy Woodward wrote:

> > Don't forget conservatives. They are The Enemy of Teh People
> >and Hte Planet.

> You mean like this George "Walker" Bush guy who cant even spell
> his own name right?????

 Yes, w. He's Teh Enemy's leader - fortunately....

>Speaking as someone who's screwed up fairly majorly in the past, I think
>we need to also concider the mistakes of the downed rider himself.  Just
>because he got a bit roughed up and his bike was more or less shitcaned
>doesn't make him blameless.

Of course not. But hte ride leaders and more experienced riders in teh group
have a moral resonsibility towards teh newbies.

 He was riding thoughtlessly, stupidy.  He
>made -very- poor choices.  I've been riding with fairly quick riders
>occasionally recently, and the ability to just let 'em go is as important
>to riding safely as using both brakes or countersteering.  He didn't do
>that, and deserves some of our negative attention just as I have.

Indeed so. The primary resonsibility for his accident rests with himself. But
since many newbie squids are ego driven, they WILL try to keep up with folk
way bette t han they are, and will crash. This is so obviouis that ANY gruop
should have this at teh top of its priorities. Protecting newbies from
themselves is an important part of group oganisation. Whay d you think tehy
split trackschools up into categories byt speed instead of letting Darwin sort
it all out??????

>You ever heard of the words "Personal Responsibility"?
>Each and every rider is (and should be) responsible for his/her own actions.

Incessantly    X-(

Yanks witter on and on about how sacroscant it is all over Usenent; right
until they spill hot coffee into their laps and sue teh restaurant......This
makes teh rest of us out here in teh Real World fall about laughing.

Yeah I guess he wrecked because he didn't have your awesome riding talent.
Too bad your elite abilities didn't signal you to slow down since you knew 2
of your group to be newbies who had never rode this road before. I wonder
did you....

1.) Warn them that this road was particularly treacherous?

2.) Explain to them that they don't need to keep up with you ( and your mad
skills ) and that you would wait for them at junctions?

3.) List to them the rest of the trite you so helpfully posted here to
strangers ( they are your friends right?) ?

The guy was probably just trying to keep up since he was lost and didn't
know how to get home. Too bad for him you were riding balls to the wall on a
public road.

"l33trb1ke" <2l33t@spam.com> wrote in message
news:T2x97.273$WB.32270@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
> Yeah I guess he wrecked because he didn't have your awesome riding talent.
> Too bad your elite abilities didn't signal you to slow down since you knew
2
> of your group to be newbies who had never rode this road before. I wonder
> did you....
>
> 1.) Warn them that this road was particularly treacherous?
>
> 2.) Explain to them that they don't need to keep up with you ( and your
mad
> skills ) and that you would wait for them at junctions?
>
> 3.) List to them the rest of the trite you so helpfully posted here to
> strangers ( they are your friends right?) ?
>
> The guy was probably just trying to keep up since he was lost and didn't
> know how to get home. Too bad for him you were riding balls to the wall on
a
> public road.
>
>
>

They were warned about the road.
They were told not to try and keep up with Daniel (I told them)

You have no clue.
You were not there.
You cannot get lost out there.
There are no junctions.

--
Andrew
00 Sprint RS
http://ultrasupercool.com

"Andy Burnett" <tzrider@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:90EF6697Ctzrideryahoocom@205.158.27.240...


> When I now think of responsibility in this sort of situation, I am not
thinking
> in legal or insurance terms; I think in terms of what it would take for
the
> accident not to happen.  In my opinion, each individual rider has 100% of
the
> responsibility to ride within his skill level.  I feel that I have 100% of
the
> responsibility to set a pace that doesn't inspire other riders to push too
> hard.

As usual a very thoughtful post by AB...My experience(growth) parallels
yours although I'm not sure that I would assign 100% responsibility for the
leader setting the pace. Frankly this is imposable to assess. Perhaps Andy
is referring to his own personal motivation while leading...I know that I
feel a responsibility to other riders in any group ride...

Newer less experienced riders are always at greater risk. They often feel a
need to (A)PROVE to themselves that they can GO JUST AS QUICK as rider X on
his or her bike... that's just a slow piece-of-shit according to the
MAGAZINE writers.

I chose to describe this tendency as a form of PERFORMANCE ANXIETY.
Sometimes it's hard to spot in others or even in ourselves.

I really appreciate Daniel B's candor in his post and know that we can
always benefit from an analysis of any motorcycle accident...

On Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:02:06 GMT, women fainted and men gasped when
"Shawn" <shawnyork@prodigy.net> casually remarked:


>Allan,
>You ever heard of the words "Personal Responsibility"?
>Each and every rider is (and should be) responsible for his/her own actions.
>
>Shawn
>00-R1
>

I have to agree with Allan.  The clueless newbie *is* responsible for
his own actions...to a point.  However, as any *experienced, properly
trained* road captain will tell you, a good road captain makes sure
that *everyone* knows the rules, handsignals and pace *before* they
take off.  And each rider is responsible for keeping an eye on the
rider behind them..for *exactly* the reason that occurred.

This wasn't a *group* ride.  It was an ego exhibition for the
experienced riders at the expense of the newbies lives and their
bikes.




-aki

01 HD Dyna Wide Glide
85 700 Magna (sold)
85 V65 Magna (sold)
86 500 Shadow (sold)
sold! sold! sold!
AMA Lifemember...
DoD#0628...
HOG,MANS

Peckham wrote:

> With the exception of the crew I regularly ride with in Seattle, most of the
> group rides have been were with one familiar person and the rest are
> typically total strangers. Even though these riders are strangers, I see no
> problem with this -- it all depends on the caliper of the riders.

 Definitely. A rider with poor calipers is an accident waiting
to happen.
 Henry

Matthias Beebe wrote:

>    Personally, I can't understand why 90%
> of motorcyclists I see seem to think that the road is a racetrack.

Well put.

The amount of negative publicity that wnakers like that
create for bikers in general is a big problem.

Racing on public roads is not only irresponsible, but a
lot more dangerous than riding on a track.   The early-fail
statistics that show up every spring prove this, at least
in a region with a real winter.  Squidlys forget most of
their skills while the snow's on the ground, then they
get the bike out in the spring, wick it up beyond their
abilities, and crash.

Jim

f4boy@home.com (Troy ( dba Troy The Troll)) wrote in
<%Kr97.34924$oh1.12797095@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com>:

>Then I decided I just HAD to lead back down. And there...in my rear view
>mirrors...it started happening. The other rider was thrown by my go one
>speed everywhere riding style to the point where on a corner exit or two
>I caught the dreaded "drift into the other lane" thing happening. I
>immediately slowed down to impulse speed everywhere.....10 mph in the
>corners, 45 mph in the straightaways...just like we had done coming up
>the canyon.

I've only just started reading this thread and maybe someone else will
mention it but:  If another's riding behavior is scaring you, why not tell
him?  When I see a rider behind me crossing the line in order to keep up,
I'll often pull over and mention it to him.  Ask him what he'd do if a car
was coming the other way.  Find out if he knows what it would take to stay
in his own lane.  He stands to become a better rider from this.

The alternative kind of sucks; slowing way down for the rest of the ride
and the other guy not getting any better.

ab

"Andy Burnett" <aburnett@NOhomeSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:90EF4875Ftzrideryahoocom@24.0.0.25...
> f4boy@home.com (Troy ( dba Troy The Troll)) wrote in
> <%Kr97.34924$oh1.12797095@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com>:
>
> >Then I decided I just HAD to lead back down. And there...in my rear view
> >mirrors...it started happening. The other rider was thrown by my go one
> >speed everywhere riding style to the point where on a corner exit or two
> >I caught the dreaded "drift into the other lane" thing happening. I
> >immediately slowed down to impulse speed everywhere.....10 mph in the
> >corners, 45 mph in the straightaways...just like we had done coming up
> >the canyon.
>
> I've only just started reading this thread and maybe someone else will
> mention it but:  If another's riding behavior is scaring you, why not tell
> him?  When I see a rider behind me crossing the line in order to keep up,
> I'll often pull over and mention it to him.  Ask him what he'd do if a car
> was coming the other way.  Find out if he knows what it would take to stay
> in his own lane.  He stands to become a better rider from this.
>
> The alternative kind of sucks; slowing way down for the rest of the ride
> and the other guy not getting any better.

Andy...I wish I felt comfortable doing that. I don't. Somewhere else right
now in this thread people are talking about the personal responsibility
issue...how the newby is responsible for his own actions, like following
Daniel until he/she falls down. I tend to beleive the same thing...and
rather than pull someone over, offer critiques on their riding ability, or
lack thereof, I tend to give up and putz. I've tried talking to people
before...hey...don't put your leg down while cornering...gee, don't you
think the yellow line is there for a reason......hey, did you notice you
could lean your bike WAY over further rather than run wide...yep...I've
tried that. More often than not the person I was talking to nodded, said
sure and kept right on doing it, or figured I was being bossy ("hey...who
made YOU God of all riders...you weren't go very fast either") or whatever.

I had known this person I was riding with for all of 20 minutes....I figured
when in Rome...don't kill anybody. Or at least don't encourage them to die.

So I give up....putz...because I enjoy putzing too and after a track day in
the recent past I have no real desire to zip up the canyons.

Long answer I guess...but  until you know someone better...or they ASK for
help....I feel more comfortable just setting a pace which they can handle
without getting themselves splattered.



>
> ab

> Don't forget conservatives. They are The Enemy of Teh People
>and Hte Planet.

You mean like this George "Walker" Bush guy who cant even spell his own name
right?????

In article <8sgcmts18og0asr3j42g0gd81eamdf8e6s@4ax.com>, oog_
20000bc@killallspamYahoo.com says...
> Solid takeaways, from my perspective:
>
> 1)  Riding a motorcycle at a pace over one's head more often than not
> leads to disaster.
> 2)  Good riding gear once again saves a life, or at minimum stopped
> serious injury.
> 3)  The street is not the track.  Unfamiliar, twisty roads must be
> viewed with caution and treated gingerly.
> 4)  Allowing one's ego to write checks your skill level cannot cash
> will drop you on the pavement in record time.
> 5)  Perhaps one should chose riding group company carefully.  This is
> an oft-repeated theme in this newsgroup, one I'm only now starting to
> really agree with.

Can I suggest a few more?

6)  Put an experienced rider at the back of the pack to ensure that
people who leave the road are spotted.

7)  Have the leader ride no faster than the slowest member can handle.
Especially if the rider is a newbie.  Newbie's biggest problems have to
do with judging speeds, braking distances, and other judgement calls.
Don't put them in a position where they are "dragged" over their heads.

8)  If you insist on having everyone go at their own speed, rather than
have a group ride, just meet somewhere at a specific time.  That will
give the slower riders a chance to leave earlier so they don't feel
pulled.

Yes, every rider is ALWAYS responsible for making sure they don't ride
over their heads.  Every rider in a group ride is also responsible for
not encouraging another to do so either.  If you don't like that
responsibility, ride solo.

---
Cam
'89 RZ 350

I wrote:

>> If another's riding behavior is scaring you, why not
>> tell him?

Troy replied:

>Andy...I wish I felt comfortable doing that. I don't. Somewhere else
>right now in this thread people are talking about the personal
>responsibility issue...how the newby is responsible for his own actions,
>like following Daniel until he/she falls down.

I definitely don't discount that.


>I tend to beleive the
>same thing...and rather than pull someone over, offer critiques on their
>riding ability, or lack thereof, I tend to give up and putz. I've tried
>talking to people before...hey...don't put your leg down while
>cornering...gee, don't you think the yellow line is there for a
>reason......hey, did you notice you could lean your bike WAY over
>further rather than run wide...yep...I've tried that. More often than
>not the person I was talking to nodded, said sure and kept right on
>doing it, or figured I was being bossy ("hey...who made YOU God of all
>riders...you weren't go very fast either") or whatever.

This sort of comes down to *when* you end up taking responsibility for the
other guy.  If you let him do his own thing, there's a somewhat higher chance
that you'll be helping him out of a ditch later.  If you intercede sooner, you
*might* reduce the likelihood he'll crash.  Of course you have to be willing to
risk looking like an asshole.

>I had known this person I was riding with for all of 20 minutes....I
>figured when in Rome...don't kill anybody. Or at least don't encourage
>them to die.

I hear you.  Nevertheless, how long does it take you to size up another rider?
You've been doing this a long time and you can probably spot a sketchy rider
quickly.  I do understand you have no relationship with the guy and perhaps no
credibility.  And I don't mean to pick on your particular example.  Just
pointing out the choice.

>Long answer I guess...but  until you know someone better...or they ASK
>for help....I feel more comfortable just setting a pace which they can
>handle without getting themselves splattered.

And this usually does handle the situation.

ab

oog_20000bc@killallspamYahoo.com (Daniel Bannon) wrote in
<8sgcmts18og0asr3j42g0gd81eamdf8e6s@4ax.com>:

>How and why it occurred are perhaps of
>interest to the group.

Thanks for sharing.  I'll offer some thoughts below that may differ with your
own outlook.  I don't mean to be highly critical of you or your group, but the
point of view I have about group riding has evolved to where it is today
through hard-won experience and maybe you'll get something from it.

>Two other gents and I attended a ride organized by Andrew,
>rec.motorcycle regular and "ride captain."

This sets a tone of someone "leading" or being to some degree responsible for
the ride.  It doesn't mean that person can or should control everybody, but it
would be good to have a conversation up front about how he expects people to
behave.  Maybe Andrew did that.

>Perhaps most germane to the topic, the group skill level varied a bit:

It often does.

>Getting to the heart of the matter, the group newbie highsided at
>somewhere between 60-90 mph on a fairly tricky turn, out in the
>boondocks.

You haven't said how anyone knows so much about what happened in the crash.
Nobody saw it and the guy who crashed rang his bell.  Are you going from his
account?  Do you trust his memory?  Ultimately, it may not matter to anybody
but him; the relevant fact to you is that he was riding over his head, at least
at that moment.

>I believe our newbike
>hopped the rear wheel under hard braking while attempting to slow,
>failed to adequately shed speed, target-fixated, turned too late, and
>high-sided once his front locked on the shoulder gravel.

Where did this detail come from?

>Ironically, the ride went well up to the crash.  We all chose what I
>thought individually-appropriate paces for the twisty part of the run,
>Hwy 112.  This impression was incorrect: the newbie chose a pace
>vastly over his head, a fact only graphically evidenced later.

Is this accurate?  Was the newbie over his head for the whole ride or in that
one turn?  If you think he was over his head the whole time, how do you know?
Did you think he was over his head before he crashed?

Depending on how you answer these, you either knew he was potential trouble and
could have interceded, or you can't really say he was over his head the whole
time.  If you weren't worried about him until he fell down, it may be an unfair
characterization of him to imply that he was out of control the whole time.

If you don't feel like broadcasting the answers to the questions above, that's
fine with me, but consider them and ask yourself if you could have made a
difference ahead of time.

>Prior to the twisty part, ride captain Andrew set a rally point or two
>for us to meet up, at our individual paces.  I've been known to sally
>forth ahead on such rides, setting a personal brisk pace well within
>my limits.  Motorcyclists can be independent beasts, and I believe we
>all strive for a personal best.  That personal best varies by
>individual.  Rendezvousing a little later still maintains a group
>spirit, while allowing individuals to seek their own personal nirvana.
>Such is my view of things; no warranties applied or insinuated, as
>they say.

Understood.  Did the rest of your group know that?

>Evidence from this little drama strongly suggests the issue occurred
>due to Mr. Newbie riding far over his head, in an attempt to corral up
>and overtake another group member (me, in this case).  I'm told the
>wreck occurred soon after I exited the turn in question, as Mr. Newbie
>turned it up a notch to "catch" me.  Chalk one up for youth and
>exuberance superceding common sense.

Who told you?  The guy who crashed?  I keep wondering about this because:

>Not concentrating on riders behind me, I remained unaware until the
>next rally point, 35 miles down the road.  Riders behind me saw
>nothing either, passing the turn minutes behind the crash, as the
>whole shebang (newbie rider, bike, and most parts) ended in the ditch
>and out of sight. We only realized the possibility of a problem much
>later, when rider no. 4 failed to arrive.

As someone else mentioned, this is a pretty bleak scenario.  IMO, 35 miles is
way too far not to have verified that your group is still in one piece.  It's
great that this rider wasn't badly hurt, but if he had been, the amount of time
it would have taken you to find him over a space of 35 miles could have been
critical.  If he hadn't been able to climb out of the ditch, you could still be
looking for him, for all I know.

>Solid takeaways, from my perspective:
>
>1)  Riding a motorcycle at a pace over one's head more often than not
>leads to disaster.
>2)  Good riding gear once again saves a life, or at minimum stopped
>serious injury.
>3)  The street is not the track.  Unfamiliar, twisty roads must be
>viewed with caution and treated gingerly.
>4)  Allowing one's ego to write checks your skill level cannot cash
>will drop you on the pavement in record time.
>5)  Perhaps one should chose riding group company carefully.  This is
>an oft-repeated theme in this newsgroup, one I'm only now starting to
>really agree with.

Mostly, you're lecturing to the rider who crashed.  You seem to have no
takeaways yourself, other than choosing your riding parters more carefully.  Do
you feel zero culpability in this incident?  Before you say no, consider that
this rider would most likely not have been going so fast if you hadn't been
there for him to chase.  He decided to do it, but you provided the incentive.

Here's a story of my own that represented a turning point in how I look at
riding with others.  It's a day I'm still ashamed of, even though there are
plenty of arguments about a rider's personal responsibility that I could try to
hide behind.

Even on the day this happened (a couple of years ago), I generally rode a pace
with others that allowed us to stay together.  If a trailing rider was going
slower than I wanted, I would ride fast through corners and roll off on
straights.  With some riders I knew better, I was less apt to slow way down and
more apt to ride my own pace and wait periodically.

One day I was riding with a rider I knew somewhat.  He was very interested n
being fast and his approach, despite advice from many of us, was to buy really
fast bikes.  He'd had a 900RR that was tricked out by Erion with mag wheels,
different offset triples, shock, fork work, a cam, pipe and jet.  The bike
ripped.  The rider wasn't working that much on his riding.  In recent memory
still was a day on which he was stopping for a stoplight, went to put his foot
down, caught his shoelace (that's right) on his foot peg and tipped over.
Someone had to help him out from under the bike.

The 900RR got stolen and he replaced it with a Blackbird.  The day we went
riding, I was on my ST1100.  I knew the road well and I was much more
experienced than he was.  We set a brisk pace and he seemed to be riding pretty
well.  I could ride corners faster than he could and would roll off a bit at
the turn exit to let him catch up.  Everything was fine until we got to a
cresting, DR, off camber blind left.  It's a tricky turn and when I'm by
myself, I like to rail through it.  As I approached the run, I decided to go
fast through it, even though I had a nagging thought that this might suck him
in.  As I exited the turn I saw a car coming the other way.  It was going to
arrive at the apex at about the same moment my friend would.

I looked in my mirror to see what would happen.  My friend had turned early,
but was still in his own lane.  It should have been possible for him to
complete the turn, but between the turn tightening up and him being startled by
the car, he stood it up and ran off the road.

There was a ditch with a gravel bottom at the outside of the turn.  He rode
along the botttom of the ditch for about quite a ways until he hit something
that bucked him off.  The bike slewed sideways and he went over the top.

I turned around immediately and went back.  The fall didn't look *that* violent
and I expected him to get to his feet and start cussing.  Didn't happen.  As I
got closer, I could see he was convulsing.  I ran over to him and found him
twitching, gasping very rapidly and with his eyes rolled back in his head.

He had been wearing full gear, but my friend was built like a pool cue and it
didn't take much to hurt him badly.  I held him still and called his name.  He
began to revive, but his breath still came too rapidly.  I was pretty sure he'd
punctured a lung and spinal injury seemed like a strong possibility.  He tried
repeatedly to get up; I asked him to lie down.  Once he did, I held him still
and continued to talk to him.  At the same time, I fished for my phone and
found I could get a signal.  I called 911, described the location and injuries
and they dispatched paramedics and a helicopter.

They flew him to the Stanford hospital, which has an outstanding trauma center.
I followed them over and stayed with him until they finally got him off the
backboard and treated him.  He had broken seven ribs, his collarbone, cracked
three thoracic vertebra and punctured a lung.

When he was lucid the next day, he apologized profusely for making such a dumb
mistake.  I was busy feeling miserable for sucking him in.  He was clear that
he was struggling to keep up with me, feeling like he should easily be able to
hang with my ST1100 on his Blackbird.  I was clear that he wouldn't have been
struggling if I hadn't put him in that situation.  I had the premonition that
he'd try to give chase and I didn't listen to it.

The doctors, my friend and his family all feel I saved his life.  He might have
died if I hadn't stabilized him and made sure he was breathing as well as he
could.  But neither of us would have been in that position if I had rolled off
just a hair before that turn.

My friend gave up riding after what amounted to a pretty short and dramatic
riding career.  Disappointing, but maybe not a bad idea.

When I now think of responsibility in this sort of situation, I am not thinking
in legal or insurance terms; I think in terms of what it would take for the
accident not to happen.  In my opinion, each individual rider has 100% of the
responsibility to ride within his skill level.  I feel that I have 100% of the
responsibility to set a pace that doesn't inspire other riders to push too
hard.

ab

shawnyork@prodigy.net (Shawn) wrote in
<ymv97.7523$Mz4.1507371267@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>:

>You ever heard of the words "Personal Responsibility"?
>Each and every rider is (and should be) responsible for his/her own
>actions.

Why is it that when one of them crashes, the rest feel some obligation to pick
him up?  This is almost universally true and it suggests that what you say
above isn't the whole picture.

ab

> >I tend to beleive the
> >same thing...and rather than pull someone over, offer critiques on their
> >riding ability, or lack thereof, I tend to give up and putz. I've tried
> >talking to people before...hey...don't put your leg down while
> >cornering...gee, don't you think the yellow line is there for a
> >reason......hey, did you notice you could lean your bike WAY over
> >further rather than run wide...yep...I've tried that. More often than
> >not the person I was talking to nodded, said sure and kept right on
> >doing it, or figured I was being bossy ("hey...who made YOU God of all
> >riders...you weren't go very fast either") or whatever.
>
> This sort of comes down to *when* you end up taking responsibility for the
> other guy.  If you let him do his own thing, there's a somewhat higher
chance
> that you'll be helping him out of a ditch later.  If you intercede sooner,
you
> *might* reduce the likelihood he'll crash.  Of course you have to be
willing to
> risk looking like an asshole.

I never want to take responsibility for the other guy...my wife and
kids...sure...but another rider? Nah...they aren't paying me to educate
them...but I will help out if they crash.
As for looking like an asshole......not that I worry about that much.... I
find riding companions few and far between and I hate to give them the
impression that I'm some yutz right from the get-go. I'd rather sacrifice a
fast ride and putz. As a matter of fact....I would say I will always
sacrifice a fast ride for a safe one. I ride with people who with 10 years
of experience are probably lucky to get to work without crashing...and I
ride with people who have racing licenses and go to the track more than
me...so if I really want a fast ride I know who to ride with. New
people...its always a risk. Having led WAY to many people in over their
heads I guess I just developed a way to deal with it...sacrifice the rides
speed for safety. For some people I suppose it would ruin the ride but
hey...there is always tomorrow.


>
> >I had known this person I was riding with for all of 20 minutes....I
> >figured when in Rome...don't kill anybody. Or at least don't encourage
> >them to die.
>
> I hear you.  Nevertheless, how long does it take you to size up another
rider?

Sizing up a rider....lets use Sunday as an example...took one look at the
tires on the bike...asked how many miles were on it...and then watched
through the first 3 corners. Done deal.


> You've been doing this a long time and you can probably spot a sketchy
rider
> quickly.  I do understand you have no relationship with the guy and
perhaps no
> credibility.  And I don't mean to pick on your particular example.  Just
> pointing out the choice.

The amazing thing in this example was the rider had 10 years or so of
experience...had been riding since an earlier age than me. Had a nice
Honda...just no affinity for leaning it over much. Did everything else
fine...was eager for twisties...wasn't a squid. But still...could be pulled
in over their head way to easy. I shoulda stayed behind.


>
> >Long answer I guess...but  until you know someone better...or they ASK
> >for help....I feel more comfortable just setting a pace which they can
> >handle without getting themselves splattered.
>
> And this usually does handle the situation.
>
> ab

Andy Burnett <tzrider@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:90EF6697Ctzrideryahoocom@205.158.27.240...
> oog_20000bc@killallspamYahoo.com (Daniel Bannon) wrote in
> <8sgcmts18og0asr3j42g0gd81eamdf8e6s@4ax.com>:

> Thanks for sharing.  I'll offer some thoughts below that may differ with
your
> own outlook.  I don't mean to be highly critical of you or your group, but
the
> point of view I have about group riding has evolved to where it is today
> through hard-won experience and maybe you'll get something from it.

<snipping for brevity>

When CalBMW/Triumph selected me and Chris to ride lead for RATS, I used the
following approach:

1.    We met before the ride and I either handed out route maps, or we
discussed the route, having a destination in mind, and a         return
route in mind.

2.    If I was leading, and by some stroke of luck, was faster than my
group, I would back off the throttle, wave people on,             and drop
to the back of the pack, to see how everyone was doing.  I expressly did not
want people pushing beyond their         limits.  This was a conscious
decision that made the overall pace too slow for some.  But since they knew
the route from         advance talks, they could go ahead.   On one ride, I
lost track of a straggler, and went back to check on him.   Without a
leader, my group was still bright enough to stop at the next gas
station/break point, and wait around.  Turns out my
straggler's right mirror had stripped on its thread and was whirling around
in the wind.  This was disconcerting to the                 rider, who had
stopped to take it off (couldn't) or tighten it down (couldn't) and who was
therefore going very slow.

  3.    As a ride leader, it is not my impression that one should set a pace
faster than the average rider in your group.  I also             don't want
anyone thinking that they have to keep up with me, or anyone else, as that
is the surest road to an accident I             am aware of.  We let people
know that we would stop at every intersection that could lead someone to
getting lost, and         wait for our slowest rider.   That allowed for
some "point and shoot" for the faster people, without losing touch with the
slower people.

4.    Having ridden with Andy   "ab"   I know that he has two variations on
this theme:

        1.    If he goes through a series of turns rapidly enough to leave
me behind in a different county, he slows down in the straights, and allows
me (and others) a chance to catch up.  There isn't all that much value in
going fast in the straights.

        2.    About every 12-15 miles on a known course, he pulls over and
waits for me, and others to catch up.

The concept behind my approach, and I think Andy's is to allow everyone to
ride at their own pace,  without feeling that if they don't keep up they
will either be lost or embarrassed.

The best approach, in my current opinion, is to have no rider leader at all.
A group can assemble, work out routes, stopping points, and final
destination.  Whether they ride together depends on how social the fast
guys/gals feel like being, and how "on" the slower guys/gals are feeling
about their riding.    This, of course, presumes that everyone either knows
the routes, or is very adept at extrapolating from maps.  And even then, if
the faster guys/gals know the route, it's worth waiting at intersections,
and letting others know that if you get to a certain spot first, you will
wait there.

Just my opinion

Larry
99 R-1

> ab

"Brian Williams" <windsorets@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:c8gemtouru9qrm42f32r2ekb61reicth1c@4ax.com...
> On a side note, the original post mentioned some unfamiliarity with
> the road, at least on the part of one of more of the riders.  If you
> are riding on state routes or intersates in Washington state, you can
> view every highway in the state by surfing to...
>
> www.srview.wsdot.wa.gov  If this link is incorrect and you are
> interested, let me know.  What the site has is a map that divides the
> state into DOT regions.  Click on the region that your road is in, and
> it will bring up a pull down menu with all of the highways in that
> district.  Select the appropriate higway, and it will bring up a
> listing of all the mileposts on the roadway at tenth-mile intervals.
> Click on the link for a milepost and it will bring up a photo of that
> location.  By clicking on arrows below the photo, you can advance the
> picture at as little as 1/10 mile intervals, and see the lay of the
> entire road.  If you are travelling in the other direction, you can
> reverse the view.

--


Excellent Brian,

If you would like to see where squidboy biffed you can get there by
navigating from the link:  www.srview.wsdot.wa.gov
1.  Click start SR web
2.  Pick OLY in the Green on the top left when the Java Window opens
3.  Navigate down to 112 mainline in the list box and click Show Highway Log
4.  Mile marker 26.44 BEG Bridge Pysht River - View The Picture
5.  Mile marker 26.49 END Bridge Pysht River - View The Picture

Notice the pavement ripples.  Notice the turn.  Squidboy went off to the
left of the big yellow arrow sign.  If you back it up and move it forward
with the arrows under the photos, you can definitely see how bad the
pavement is there.


Andrew
00 Sprint RS
http://ultrasupercool.com

In article <90EF6697Ctzrideryahoocom@205.158.27.240>,
tzrider@NOSPAMyahoo.com says...
> Here's a story of my own that represented a turning point in how I look at
> riding with others.  It's a day I'm still ashamed of, even though there are
> plenty of arguments about a rider's personal responsibility that I could try to
> hide behind.

<snip story>

Yikes.  That's a heck of a way to have to learn a lesson.  My hat's off
to you for having the cajones to post it and eat the associated humble
pie.  If you don't mind, I'll just learn from your lesson rather than
from experience.

> When I now think of responsibility in this sort of situation, I am not thinking
> in legal or insurance terms; I think in terms of what it would take for the
> accident not to happen.  In my opinion, each individual rider has 100% of the
> responsibility to ride within his skill level.  I feel that I have 100% of the
> responsibility to set a pace that doesn't inspire other riders to push too
> hard.

Well said.  I think this sums up the whole concept perfectly.

---
Cam
'89 RZ 350

Daniel Bannon wrote in message
>I believe our newbike
> hopped the rear wheel under hard braking while attempting to slow,
> failed to adequately shed speed, target-fixated, turned too late, and
> high-sided once his front locked on the shoulder gravel.

You don't highside when you lock your front wheel in gravel - unless you
release it suddenly again or get sudden grip from somewhere.

> The newbie chose a pace
> vastly over his head, a fact only graphically evidenced later.

And none of you "experienced" riders noticed that? Hmmm.

> Motorcyclists can be independent beasts, and I believe we
> all strive for a personal best.  That personal best varies by
> individual.

I gather we are equating "best" with speed here...

> I'm told the
> wreck occurred soon after I exited the turn in question, as Mr. Newbie
> turned it up a notch to "catch" me.
<snip>
> Riders behind me saw
> nothing either, passing the turn minutes behind the crash, as the
> whole shebang (newbie rider, bike, and most parts) ended in the ditch
> and out of sight. We only realized the possibility of a problem much
> later, when rider no. 4 failed to arrive.

1) If none of the other riders saw the crash, who "told (you) the wreck
occurred soon after (you) exited the turn in question, as Mr. Newbie turned
it up a notch to "catch" (you)".

>Not concentrating on riders behind me, I remained unaware until the
> next rally point, 35 miles down the road.

You ride in a group and don't "concentrate" on the others in your group.
Remind me not to ride with you. The basic rules of riding in a group is to
keep an eye on the rider behind you and stop if s/he disappears.

While you were playing selfish boy racer, that newbie could have been dying
in that ditch.

If you are riding with a group, you are riding with a group and owe an
obligation to the individuals group. If you want to do your own thing, you
aren't riding in a group. You can't have it both ways.

You don't notice for *35 miles* that the newbie has disappeared off your
tail?!!!! How often don't you look in your mirrors.

Quite truthfully, Daniel, I'm appalled. If you start off as a group, you
should continue as a group otherwise potentially fatal incidents like this
will happen. Also, if you have someone on your tail, you should at all times
know what that person is doing (that's a basic commonsense riding skill) -
and if that person is part of your group and suddenly disappears, you worry!

Too often, we hear riders say that car drivers don't care a darn about
motorcyclists. So, when I hear of instances like this where a motorcyclist
doesn't seem to care a darn about the fate of another motorcyclist, and
especially because it's one of his friends, then I'm saddened, as well as
appalled.

--
Allan Kirk
New Zealand Motorcycle Safety Consultants
(Saving motorcyclists' lives since 1971)
Website: http://www.megarider.com

"Andy Woodward" <azw@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:996580417.866821@dyfi.aber.ac.uk...
> >You ever heard of the words "Personal Responsibility"?
> >Each and every rider is (and should be) responsible for his/her own
actions.
>
> Incessantly

>
> Yanks witter on and on about how sacroscant it is all over Usenent; right
> until they spill hot coffee into their laps and sue teh
restaurant......This
> makes teh rest of us out here in teh Real World fall about laughing.
>
>
Don't even *think* of lumping me in with the idiots who play this game. I
find this type of behavior as repulsive and revolting as you apparently do
to.

Shawn
00-R1

"Troy ( dba Troy The Troll)" <f4boy@home.com> wrote in message
news:5XB97.38296$oh1.13602913@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...

>snip

>I'd rather sacrifice a
> fast ride and putz. As a matter of fact....I would say I will always
> sacrifice a fast ride for a safe one. I ride with people who with 10 years
> of experience are probably lucky to get to work without crashing...
>snip

EGADS! I hope that's not me your talking about!!

Shawn
00-R1

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Burnett" <tzrider@NOSPAMyahoo.com>
Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles,alt.motorcycle.sportbike
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: Wreck report and group ride (that isn't a group ride?) musings


> shawnyork@prodigy.net (Shawn) wrote in
> <ymv97.7523$Mz4.1507371267@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>:
>
> >You ever heard of the words "Personal Responsibility"?
> >Each and every rider is (and should be) responsible for his/her own
> >actions.
>
> Why is it that when one of them crashes, the rest feel some obligation to
pick
> him up?  This is almost universally true and it suggests that what you say
> above isn't the whole picture.
>
> ab


I have no qualms about helping someone else out who has crashed his bike
when it's his fault. As a matter of fact, I feel it's my duty since a nice
passer-by helped a friend of mine once. We tried to pay him but he said the
only payment he wanted was for us to promise to do the same if the situation
ever presented itself.
However; whether I help someone else or someone helps me, the person in
control of the bike is the one who is responsible for the crash. Period.*

*(obviously this applies to someone riding alone; as in NOT having another
bike or car involved. I know that there are situations where a crash is not
necessarily the riders fault. i.e. debris in a blind corner, but as my
understanding of this ride goes, the rider crashed due to "pushing it"
beyond his limits. No other bike was involved other than the person he was
trying to catch. No one else DIRECTLY cause the crash. That's the context of
the post; so please keep in mind that's also the context of my reply.

Andrew confessed to rec.motorcycles:

> Squidboy just had it in his mind to "Race" out there.  I swear he
> posted on our Intranet msg board that he was trying to hang with Bannon
> and possibly even pass him.   We did ride as a group out to this area,
> just as we had lunch as a group, however everyone knew to ride their
> own ride when we got on the destination road.   I told them we should
> queue up in order of comfort and head out from there.  So by definiton,
> I am not sure the actual twisty part was ever supposed to be a group
> ride.

Geez, Andrew.  I'm largely agreein' with yah here, but even I think that's
kinda weak.  I generally try to keep an eye on other bikers even if I have
no idea who they are.  Ok, fine, I'm just checkin' out their bikes.

Anyway, I think you made a small mistake.  Compared to the intetional and
major mistake Squidboy made, I think this heat your taking is overly harsh,
but then welcome to usenet.  But I hope you'll keep a better eye out, I
really don't think you should have to make excuses for not babysitting
other riders.

Reed.
--
'88 Yamaha YSR50 Racebike Wasabi Fez, the FezRacer
'78 SR500 Custom "Critta Isshy, AKA Wicked Little Critta" (For Sale)
'89 Honda NX650 "Sprout" || DOD #: 10^3
If you're here for the spelling, you've come to the wrong place.
"My Head Hurts, My Feet Stink, And I Don't Love Jesus." -Jimmy Buffett

Henry H. Hansteen confessed to rec.motorcycles:

> Andy Woodward wrote:
>
>> > Don't forget conservatives. They are The Enemy of Teh People and Hte
>> > Planet.
>
>> You mean like this George "Walker" Bush guy who cant even spell  his
>> own name right?????
>
>  Yes, w. He's Teh Enemy's leader - fortunately....

So what is the correct reaction to seeing Dubbaya driving next to you when
you're riding?

Reed.
--
'88 Yamaha YSR50 Racebike Wasabi Fez, the FezRacer
'78 SR500 Custom "Critta Isshy, AKA Wicked Little Critta" (For Sale)
'89 Honda NX650 "Sprout" || DOD #: 10^3
If you're here for the spelling, you've come to the wrong place.
"My Head Hurts, My Feet Stink, And I Don't Love Jesus." -Jimmy Buffett

Shawn confessed to rec.motorcycles:

>
> "Andy Woodward" <azw@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:996580417.866821@dyfi.aber.ac.uk...
>> >You ever heard of the words "Personal Responsibility"?
>> >Each and every rider is (and should be) responsible for his/her own
>> >actions.
>>
>> Incessantly
>
>>
>> Yanks witter on and on about how sacroscant it is all over Usenent;
>> right until they spill hot coffee into their laps and sue teh
>> restaurant......This makes teh rest of us out here in teh Real World
>> fall about laughing.
>>
>>
> Don't even *think* of lumping me in with the idiots who play this game.
> I find this type of behavior as repulsive and revolting as you
> apparently do to.

Then start your own damn tea-drinking country!  Mocking lawsuits in
unamerican!

Reed.
--
'88 Yamaha YSR50 Racebike Wasabi Fez, the FezRacer
'78 SR500 Custom "Critta Isshy, AKA Wicked Little Critta" (For Sale)
'89 Honda NX650 "Sprout" || DOD #: 10^3
If you're here for the spelling, you've come to the wrong place.
"My Head Hurts, My Feet Stink, And I Don't Love Jesus." -Jimmy Buffett

shawnyork@prodigy.net (Shawn) wrote in
<ulG97.8234$nw4.1637281938@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>:

>I have no qualms about helping someone else out who has crashed his bike
>when it's his fault. As a matter of fact, I feel it's my duty since a
>nice passer-by helped a friend of mine once. We tried to pay him but he
>said the only payment he wanted was for us to promise to do the same if
>the situation ever presented itself.
>However; whether I help someone else or someone helps me, the person in
>control of the bike is the one who is responsible for the crash.
>Period.*

It's great that you're willing to help out fallen riders.  Most other riders
I've met are.  I'm trying to provoke some thought to raise the question of
whether you'd like to help someone out of a ditch or help them avoid going in
to begin with.  I do understand that you can't always do that.  The specific
context I'm thinking of is where a rider is following you and struggling to
keep up.

>*(obviously this applies to someone riding alone; as in NOT having
>another bike or car involved. I know that there are situations where a
>crash is not necessarily the riders fault. i.e. debris in a blind
>corner, but as my understanding of this ride goes, the rider crashed due
>to "pushing it" beyond his limits. No other bike was involved other than
>the person he was trying to catch. No one else DIRECTLY cause the crash.
>That's the context of the post; so please keep in mind that's also the
>context of my reply.

Your context is clear and principally I agree with everything you're saying.
But we can't really ignore the fact that some, even many riders will go faster
when there's someone to chase than they would otherwise.  I don't know why they
do and I think it's foolish and all that, but the simple fact is:  It happens.
So, if you're leading a ride and you know the guy behind you is killing himself
to catch up, what are you going to do about it?  If he crashed and *died* while
trying to hang with you, would you have a completely clear conscience?

Think of someone you know and like who doesn't ride as well as you.  Picture
them struggling to catch you on some backroad where you're setting the pace and
not letting up.  He runs wide into the oncoming lane and a minivan collects
him.  Dies on the scene.  Sure, you'd be wishing he hadn't been trying so hard,
but I'll bet you'd wish you had done some things differently too.  That's the
side of you I'm trying to appeal to; your moral side, not the legal or even
logical side.

ab

"Shawn" <shawnyork@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:kqF97.105$Do5.20092098@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Troy ( dba Troy The Troll)" <f4boy@home.com> wrote in message
> news:5XB97.38296$oh1.13602913@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
>
> >snip
>
> >I'd rather sacrifice a
> > fast ride and putz. As a matter of fact....I would say I will always
> > sacrifice a fast ride for a safe one. I ride with people who with 10
years
> > of experience are probably lucky to get to work without crashing...
> >snip
>
> EGADS! I hope that's not me your talking about!!
>
> Shawn
> 00-R1

Shawn! I didn't even know you TOOK your bike to work...I figured you drove
the truck. I went for a ride with someone I met on the Internet Sunday......

"NZMSC" <nzmscon@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:wJF97.1629$ww1.144767@news02.tsnz.net...
> Troy wrote
> > I never want to take responsibility for the other guy...my wife and
> > kids...sure...but another rider? Nah...they aren't paying me to educate
> > them...but I will help out if they crash.
>
> You never want to take the responsibility for the other guy ... but you
will
> help out if they crash. You've never seen a dead motorcyclist, have you
> Troy?

Yep...I have. Fortunately no one I knew but I've wandered into the middle of
a disaster scene before. Not pretty.


>
> The sight stays with you for the rest of your life and you can lie awake
at
> nights wondering whether there was anything you could have done to prevent
> what happened.
>
> So, if the truth is but known, Troy, ultimately the responsibility is to
> yourself....
>

It sure is. If anyone riding with me wants to crash and get themselves
kilt....I say have at it. But I'd prefer not to be involved......

On Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:02:32 GMT, 01dyna@my.house wrote:

>This wasn't a *group* ride.  It was an ego exhibition for the
>experienced riders at the expense of the newbies lives and their
>bikes.

How are you in any position to make that judgement? This is pure
speculation, and any "newbie" willing to ride over his head on
unfamiliar roads is going down soon, whether he's alone or with a
group.

DaveW
R1
Mille R

On a side note, the original post mentioned some unfamiliarity with
the road, at least on the part of one of more of the riders.  If you
are riding on state routes or intersates in Washington state, you can
view every highway in the state by surfing to...

www.srview.wsdot.wa.gov  If this link is incorrect and you are
interested, let me know.  What the site has is a map that divides the
state into DOT regions.  Click on the region that your road is in, and
it will bring up a pull down menu with all of the highways in that
district.  Select the appropriate higway, and it will bring up a
listing of all the mileposts on the roadway at tenth-mile intervals.
Click on the link for a milepost and it will bring up a photo of that
location.  By clicking on arrows below the photo, you can advance the
picture at as little as 1/10 mile intervals, and see the lay of the
entire road.  If you are travelling in the other direction, you can
reverse the view.

If you have a decent connection speed, you can just hit the advance
button and "travel" the entire highway. Handy to have for SR's that
run through cities, because you can see all of the mandatory turn
lanes, merge points, and other problems that might occur.  All of the
pictures are stills taken from videotaping done by the DOT within the
last year or so.

Brian Williams
Zillah, Washington

>Two other gents and I attended a ride organized by Andrew,
>rec.motorcycle regular and "ride captain."  The most interesting and
>technical part of the ride is WA Hwy 112, west from Port Angeles, WA
>to Neah Bay and back.  From Seattle, the first half of the ride is on
>relatively sedate, straight roads until the fun stuff begins.

"Andy Burnett" <tzrider@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:90EFAC06Atzrideryahoocom@205.158.27.240...
> shawnyork@prodigy.net (Shawn) wrote in
> <ulG97.8234$nw4.1637281938@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>:
>
> >I have no qualms about helping someone else out who has crashed his bike
> >when it's his fault. As a matter of fact, I feel it's my duty since a
> >nice passer-by helped a friend of mine once. We tried to pay him but he
> >said the only payment he wanted was for us to promise to do the same if
> >the situation ever presented itself.
> >However; whether I help someone else or someone helps me, the person in
> >control of the bike is the one who is responsible for the crash.
> >Period.*
>
> It's great that you're willing to help out fallen riders.  Most other
riders
> I've met are.  I'm trying to provoke some thought to raise the question of
> whether you'd like to help someone out of a ditch or help them avoid going
in
> to begin with.  I do understand that you can't always do that.  The
specific
> context I'm thinking of is where a rider is following you and struggling
to
> keep up.
>
> >*(obviously this applies to someone riding alone; as in NOT having
> >another bike or car involved. I know that there are situations where a
> >crash is not necessarily the riders fault. i.e. debris in a blind
> >corner, but as my understanding of this ride goes, the rider crashed due
> >to "pushing it" beyond his limits. No other bike was involved other than
> >the person he was trying to catch. No one else DIRECTLY cause the crash.
> >That's the context of the post; so please keep in mind that's also the
> >context of my reply.
>
> Your context is clear and principally I agree with everything you're
saying.
> But we can't really ignore the fact that some, even many riders will go
faster
> when there's someone to chase than they would otherwise.  I don't know why
they
> do and I think it's foolish and all that, but the simple fact is:  It
happens.
> So, if you're leading a ride and you know the guy behind you is killing
himself
> to catch up, what are you going to do about it?  If he crashed and *died*
while
> trying to hang with you, would you have a completely clear conscience?
>
> Think of someone you know and like who doesn't ride as well as you.
Picture
> them struggling to catch you on some backroad where you're setting the
pace and
> not letting up.  He runs wide into the oncoming lane and a minivan
collects
> him.  Dies on the scene.  Sure, you'd be wishing he hadn't been trying so
hard,
> but I'll bet you'd wish you had done some things differently too.  That's
the
> side of you I'm trying to appeal to; your moral side, not the legal or
even
> logical side.
>
> ab

Ok now that you've made it personal, I see your point better. I would feel
bad, guilty even. On my first ride with a bunch of friends, I ran wide and
almost smacked a truck coming the other way. Luckily, it was almost, and not
all the way. That one scare was enough. Don't care how far the meeting place
is (35 miles away or 35 feet) *before* I start ANY ride I make sure the
people know my feelings on this subject. "I'll meet you there, I may be
pretty far behind, but I'll meet you there." I don't care how fast they go,
I know my limits and I ride within them (or at least I try to) If I'd died
that first ride then so be it. My fault not anyone else's.
I guess we both agree to some extent. Probably even as much as 90%,  and I
would slow down if I was the lead and I saw that someone was pushing it to
keep up, (though  really can't see that happening, I'm really not that fast)
but I still feel that ultimately it is each rider's responsibility to ride
"their" ride.

Shawn
00-R1

Troy wrote
> I never want to take responsibility for the other guy...my wife and
> kids...sure...but another rider? Nah...they aren't paying me to educate
> them...but I will help out if they crash.

You never want to take the responsibility for the other guy ... but you will
help out if they crash. You've never seen a dead motorcyclist, have you
Troy?

The sight stays with you for the rest of your life and you can lie awake at
nights wondering whether there was anything you could have done to prevent
what happened.

So, if the truth is but known, Troy, ultimately the responsibility is to
yourself....

--
Allan Kirk
New Zealand Motorcycle Safety Consultants
(Saving motorcyclists' lives since 1971)
Website: http://www.megarider.com

Vincerama wrote
> I hate group riding. Pulled from the front, pushed from the rear. Even if
> this isn't true, that's the way it always feels to me. Makes it not fun.
I'd
> rather ride with maybe ONE other person. Two at tops, but they have to be
> good enough friends that I don't feel the need to keep up. For me it's not
> trying to go fast to impress others it's more like I feel I'm slowing the
> group down and maybe people aren't having fun because I'm somehow wrecking
> it by being slow. No thanks. No pressure = fun for me.


<instructor mode on>

An excellent application of risk management. Well done! As the girl said to
the sailor, keep it up!

<instructor mode off>

--
Allan Kirk
New Zealand Motorcycle Safety Consultants
(Saving motorcyclists' lives since 1971)
Website: http://www.megarider.com